Revit Architecture

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norcaljess
Posts: 256
Registered: ‎12-27-2007
Message 1 of 18 (397 Views)
Accepted Solution

Shafts

397 Views, 17 Replies
01-04-2013 09:07 AM

We are having a problem with the Shaft tool in Revit in our office, so I am trying to understand it more completely.  We have pipes running inside wall assemblies.  We would like to cut a hole in the wall assembly parts, floor, ceiling - everything that the pipe passes through.  Is there a certain workflow or recommended way of using the Opening tools that will help us with this process?

 

Thanks,

Jessica

*Expert Elite*
Posts: 866
Registered: ‎09-28-2009
Message 2 of 18 (391 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 09:24 AM in reply to: norcaljess

One possible way would be to nest a Void into the Pipe family, then use Cut Geometry. I'm not sure the nested Void

would cut walls, floors, ceilings, etc. automatically when the Pipe was placed into the model?

 

Are you modeling the Pipes? If so, are they modeled in Revit Arch.? or Revit MEP?

Cliff B. Collins
Registered Architect/BIM Manager
Thalden Boyd Emery Architects
St. Louis, MO
Mentor
norcaljess
Posts: 256
Registered: ‎12-27-2007
Message 3 of 18 (385 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 09:37 AM in reply to: ccollins

I don't think there is a way to nest a void into a pipe family.  It's a system family, so you can't really do too much to edit the family, just the Type Properties.  I am personally the one who is modeling the pipes in our office.  My coworkers are the architectural/ structural experts, but we are really struggling with this aspect of Revit.  We are all using the hybrid Revit 2013 from the Design Suite, so it's Arch/ Struct/ MEP all -n-one.

*Expert Elite*
Alfredo_Medina
Posts: 2,798
Registered: ‎06-11-2009
Message 4 of 18 (378 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 09:57 AM in reply to: norcaljess

Why is it necessary to cut the objects that the pipe passes through? Why not simply model the pipe as any other riser for a typical system?

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Planta1 Revit Online Consulting | info@planta1.com | my Twitter | The Planta1 Blog
Mentor
norcaljess
Posts: 256
Registered: ‎12-27-2007
Message 5 of 18 (375 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 10:21 AM in reply to: Alfredo_Medina

When you model pipes in Revit, they don't actually "cut" holes in architectural or structural items that they pass through.  So #1, it shows as an interference and #2, we are constructing modular buildings that are constructed differently from your "typical" structure.  They are constructed in a factory.  We want to show all of the holes that need to be cut in any of the lumber, flooring, ceiling, etc. because these need to be roughed-out for the builders before they run the piping through the building, which is also done in the factory.

 

Thanks,

Jess

*Expert Elite*
Posts: 866
Registered: ‎09-28-2009
Message 6 of 18 (369 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 10:49 AM in reply to: norcaljess

Thanks for giving more detailed info. In this case, if the Pipes are precisely laid out and once the desgn is finalized,

you could just use in-place voids and cut geometry at all the penetrations. Time consuming indeed--but it sounds like perhaps the modular/shop-fabricated delivery may require this level of modeling. Change management would be very difficult and tedious--not what Revit is all about!

 

I do not know of a way to automatically cut the holes with RMEP Pipes, as you mention they are system families.

 

Perhaps if you created custom generic model pipes you could nest the voids into them?

 

Either way, you have a special circumstance for which Revit is not the best tool. Maybe using Inventor would

actually be a better way? I am not sure how it would "scale" to a modular building scope of work?

It sounds like digital fabrication deliverables are required? Is there a CNC process involved?

 

You could use more "traditional" Revit modeling ( Arch for Walls, Floors, Roof, Ceilings, etc. and MEP for Piping)

and then use Navisworks for clashes and 4D and 5D downstream uses.

 

Sorry I do not have any real solutions here. I think the process you are involved in is a bit beyond Revit's capabilities,

unless someone knows something I don't!

Cliff B. Collins
Registered Architect/BIM Manager
Thalden Boyd Emery Architects
St. Louis, MO
Mentor
norcaljess
Posts: 256
Registered: ‎12-27-2007
Message 7 of 18 (361 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 11:00 AM in reply to: ccollins

Ha!  You are definitely correct in that the process that we are involved in is beyond Revit capabilities, but right now it is our only choice.  I'm just trying to wrap my head around the function of the Openings/ Shafts tool.  It seems like this would be a useful tool for what we need, but we can't get it to function the way we think it should. 

*Expert Elite*
Posts: 866
Registered: ‎09-28-2009
Message 8 of 18 (358 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 11:09 AM in reply to: norcaljess

Yes. You would not design automobiles or airplanes with Revit either--so your product crosses the line between

"building" and "mass-produced/factory fabricated" product.

 

The Shaft and Wall Opening tools are only rectangular as far as I know, so cutting round holes is not possible.

(Edit: Alfredo has correctly "corrected me"--round shapes are possible.)

 

At the end of the day, you must determine what output/deliverable is required for all of your processes.

 

In a "traditional" building design project, an "Architect" would provide a BIM, then a "Contractor" would provide detailed shop drawings and fabrication documents ( digital and/or hard-copy. )

 

Revit and other software apps are beginning to blur the line here. I still think Inventor might be a viable app for your

purposes--although I do not know if its scalability would work for modular building-scale work?

 

Good luck!

Cliff B. Collins
Registered Architect/BIM Manager
Thalden Boyd Emery Architects
St. Louis, MO
*Expert Elite*
Alfredo_Medina
Posts: 2,798
Registered: ‎06-11-2009
Message 9 of 18 (355 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-04-2013 11:11 AM in reply to: ccollins

In this illustration, the first image on the upper left corner shows the location of a shaft, which is a circle of 6" in diameter. The other image on the lower left corner shows the location of a generic model family that contains just a void cylinder of 6" in diameter. The family was set to "cut with voids when loaded". The result, as you can see in the image on the right is this:

 

The shaft automatically cut floors, ceiling and roof, but could not cut the wall.

The void family can cut floors, ceiling, roof, and walls. It requires the use of Cut geometry for every cut, though.

 

1-4-2013 2-04-36 PM.jpg

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Planta1 Revit Online Consulting | info@planta1.com | my Twitter | The Planta1 Blog
*Expert Elite*
Alfredo_Medina
Posts: 2,798
Registered: ‎06-11-2009
Message 10 of 18 (312 Views)

Re: Shafts

01-05-2013 05:51 AM in reply to: Alfredo_Medina

In conclusion, I don't agree that this request of a circular shaft that passes through different types of objects is "beyond Revit's capabilities".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Planta1 Revit Online Consulting | info@planta1.com | my Twitter | The Planta1 Blog

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