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Future of Revit

57 REPLIES 57
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Message 1 of 58
vector2
1869 Views, 57 Replies

Future of Revit

an architect in my family with
15 years in the business and usually
employing 4 to 6 CAD drafters told
me after christmas dinner that
the foreseeable future for revit
will only be for large complex
projects like hospitals and 100
story buildings- and that AutoCAD
will be used for everything else..

his favorite program is ADT 2004-
and says he doesn't know of a single
engineer who doesn't use AutoCAD..

he says the only reason there will soon
be 400,000 seats of revit is because
autodesk pushes that program on
everyone and his copy of revit has
just been sitting on the shelf like
everyone else's..
57 REPLIES 57
Message 41 of 58
vector2
in reply to: vector2

darren-

i even gave you the history of all main
programs that BIM is based on besides
revit and you still keep saying i think it
is only based on revit..

obviously you are responding only to your
own thoughts and not reading anything
i say..

there are even more programs than the
ones i listed that BIM uses as a base..

but i think i know what you are blindly driving
at- you want some toys-r-us line drawing
program that you know how to use to be
BIM capable.. but it never will be..
Message 42 of 58
vector2
in reply to: vector2

" INFORMATION has many valuable uses, outside the physical model. "

then it ain't BIM..


you mean to say: "INFORMATION has many valuable uses, outside the DIGITAL model.

that's not BIM.. Edited by: Vector2 on Jan 21, 2010 3:55 PM
Message 43 of 58
DarrenScheller
in reply to: vector2

Vector-

I appreciate your correction of physical to DIGITAL.

However, you have no idea how much software I know how to utilize, support or leverage in the BIM PROCESS.
and not just Revit...

Have a great day, and keep the perspective you have, it makes the market for your job all the more exciting.

DS
Message 44 of 58
Anonymous
in reply to: vector2

I tried to trade back to ACA from Revit and Autodesk won't let me. My Revit
is sitting on the shelf. I have had Revit MEP 2010 subscription for 3 years
now, but since it won't draw a beam or column it is useless to me.
the The Cad Store is now selling Archicad instead of Autodesk products. I
have heard good things about Archicad.

Tom


"vector2" wrote in message news:6309403@discussion.autodesk.com...
an architect in my family with
15 years in the business and usually
employing 4 to 6 CAD drafters told
me after christmas dinner that
the foreseeable future for revit
will only be for large complex
projects like hospitals and 100
story buildings- and that AutoCAD
will be used for everything else..

his favorite program is ADT 2004-
and says he doesn't know of a single
engineer who doesn't use AutoCAD..

he says the only reason there will soon
be 400,000 seats of revit is because
autodesk pushes that program on
everyone and his copy of revit has
just been sitting on the shelf like
everyone else's..
Message 45 of 58
Anonymous
in reply to: vector2

Interesting comment, Tom.
I have been wondering the same thing.

In Florida Archicad is used very little (seems to me, please any body
correct me if necessary), and most people use AutoCAD.
AutoCAD Architecture (formerly ADT) is a terrific program, I have been
learning in the process, but extremely difficult to learn with all these
hidden and "supper secret" dialog boxes everywhere which are required even
to do simple things (difficult "dialoged" steps; think about the issues of
the wall joints, which are scary to deal with).
Seems to me that what Autodesk needs to do is, instead of releasing every
year a new version of AutoCAD with some new "invention" that most people do
not use or ignore and that for some people even prove to be useless (to the
point of making each new release annoying to some and having some people
call it "Auto-Ripoff"), what Autodesk should do is they should slowly
introduce the items in the old ADT and new AutoCAD Architecture and also in
Revit that had proven effective in these programs and efficient (and that
people like and use) and put these into AutoCAD. Of course, not too many
things at the same time, to make sure people catch up comfortably.

I am just learning Revit and I like what I am learning and what I have
learned so far. But are people really using it?

Look forward to see what others say....



"Tom" wrote in message
news:6336392@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I tried to trade back to ACA from Revit and Autodesk won't let me. My
> Revit
> is sitting on the shelf. I have had Revit MEP 2010 subscription for 3
> years
> now, but since it won't draw a beam or column it is useless to me.
> the The Cad Store is now selling Archicad instead of Autodesk products. I
> have heard good things about Archicad.
>
> Tom
>
>
> "vector2" wrote in message news:6309403@discussion.autodesk.com...
> an architect in my family with
> 15 years in the business and usually
> employing 4 to 6 CAD drafters told
> me after christmas dinner that
> the foreseeable future for revit
> will only be for large complex
> projects like hospitals and 100
> story buildings- and that AutoCAD
> will be used for everything else..
>
> his favorite program is ADT 2004-
> and says he doesn't know of a single
> engineer who doesn't use AutoCAD..
>
> he says the only reason there will soon
> be 400,000 seats of revit is because
> autodesk pushes that program on
> everyone and his copy of revit has
> just been sitting on the shelf like
> everyone else's..
Message 46 of 58
cfrafihbari
in reply to: vector2

I think Revit was good 5 years ago, not anymore. Its inteface is unintuitive, commands are annoying, and each updates are nothing more than slight tuneups, there is nothing major. I just do not see any future of Revit. I think Autodesk needs to ditch Revit altogether, forgett about backward compatibility, and give us a brand new software, more stable and more intuitive. And please ditch the ribon as well... the commands itslef are annoyings, and ribbon just adds one extra steps to make things more annoying..

 

Message 47 of 58
rosskirby
in reply to: cfrafihbari

Why revive a 3-year old post just to complain about a software that you don't even want to use?

Ross Kirby
Principal
Dynamik Design
www.dynamikdesign.com
Message 48 of 58
CADgrump
in reply to: rosskirby

I suppose he could have started his own post but, who cares -- it's a fun read.   I agree with him, by the way, and by posting critical commentary that isn't a vulgar rant, he's hoping to not be dismissed and, instead, affect positive change.   And by posting it under "Future of Revit" it will get noticed.

 

Revit should take a few lessons in functionality and work flow from SketchUp.

 

(My apologies if "he" is a "she".)

 

Cheers.

Message 49 of 58
cfrafihbari
in reply to: rosskirby

Dont get me wrong, I want Revit improved. More competition is better for us designers. Its just that the thing is so annoying sometimes. Sometimes too smart for its own good. I just feel the whole structure of the program is holding it back, and it cannot be updated anymore to match the competition, they need a totally new system. Call it Revit, but dont base it on the old system. Use strengths and commands from all the various other software anc come up with a super revit.

 

why cant we adjust small distances? why does not any model space have coordinates,x,y,z, it would be easy to copy move items accurately, there should be a common family folder from where we will use families, instead of creating whole host of families in each projects.. and it becomes a nightmare to keep track of which ones are upgraded and whic ones are old. why cant we snap paper space, paper edges so we can place views accurately? why can we underlay a paper space over another paper space?.. you know all these things.... I just feel we need a total redesign, rather than yerly refreshes and tuneups.

Message 50 of 58
CADgrump
in reply to: cfrafihbari

Hear, hear!
Message 51 of 58

Revit tortures me.  It tortures me every ... single ... day.  Why?

 

I've given this a lot of thought.  I studied Architecture back in the '80's.  The first CAD software I ever used was AutoCAD.  I started with version 2.18 and followed the upgrade path with 2.5, 2.6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 2000, 2002, 2004.  The early days of AutoCAD were best described as an electronic drawing board.  Line, Arc, Circile ... Move, Copy, Erase ... Zoom Window, Zoom Previous, Zoom All ... Dimensions and DText .... Blocks and WBlocks ... Layers ... there just wasn't much more to it than that.  

 

It was also a relaxed way to work.  If you needed the area of your building you didn't reach for the calculator.  All you needed was a PLine around your building and List it or use the Area command.  I always had time for a coffee before starting work because I could make one in the time it took AutoCAD 2.18 to load the average 80KB Food Plus job.  Yes, the whole job was stored in a 80KB file ... that's kilobytes.  On the IBM 80286 that would take about 3 mintues to load.  In those days we had PCs with 640KB ram and 20MB hard disks ... yes ... just 20MB .... "Who'd ever fill that?" my CAD dealer used to joke !!!

 

As a CAD manager in the early days I used to boast that I could have architects drawing buildings within a day.  And I did.  It was easy because the concepts we had all used as architects for years of drawing plans, sections, and elevations with lines, arcs and circles was easily migrated from the drawing board to AutoCAD.

 

During the life of AutoCAD 14 I started my own practice.  I hired draftsmen.  They used AutoCAD with a commercially available add-on that drew Walls, Windows, and Doors instead of Lines, Arcs, and Circles. It would extrude elevations and sections, but we still had a fair bit of editing to do.  My draftsmen were like typists in a typing pool, only they churned out drawings instead of written documents.

 

Then, after about 5 years of private practice, I stuck my head up and took a look at what Autodesk was doing.  Revit had arrived.  I was sold after seeing how plan, section, and elevation were all related.  Move a door in plan and the elevation and section were automatically changed as well.  That one feature was enough for me.  One of my biggest time wasters was marking up drawings where plan and section did not corrolate and having the draftsmen fix it in AutoCAD ... not anymore!

 

The first shock with bringing Revit into the practice was that no one knew how to use it.  The second shock was that no one wanted to use it.  The third shock was that I, with 20 years CAD experience, could not learn it in a day.  Revit sat on the shelf for a year ... then two ... while I made sevaral attempts to grasp the fundamentals of the software.  Then, a couple of my draftsmen moved on and I was hiring staff.  I noticed that one young lad claimed he could use Revit.  So I hired him.  He was only with me for a year but we were able to document a few smaller projects with satisfaction.  But none of my draftsmen could learn the software.  So I continued hiring younger people who were studying part time or had just graduated.

 

As the draftsmen moved on I replaced them with fewer, younger, and cheaper recent graduates.  Heck, they could draw better than me on Revit.  By 2009 we were 100% Revit.  The key is younger staff.  Staff who have never drawn with a drawing board.  The best staff I've had can't even use AutoCAD!!!  Revit doesn't bother them.  They've only ever known Revit.  I needed fewer staff and fewer computers.  They worked as fast as the draftsmen, but with fewer errors.  These staff were better qualified too.  Just as the days of a typing pool are over, so were the days of a drafting office, at least, in my practice.

 

I'm certainly not going to complain about Revit or suggest that it doesn't have a future.  It continues to torture me because I know how easy it was for me to document a project in AutoCAD.  Revit works with building elements.  For me, these elements don't always display on a drawing the way I would like to see them.  For example, in elevation it isn't easy to make parts of the elevation that are further away print out in a thinner pen.  I end up outlining the things that are closer with detail lines to beef them up a bit.  I also can't draw a leader arrow with an angle greater than 90°.  So drawings do look as "artistic" or "architectural" as I would like.  But to a young graduate, they look just fine.

 

Consider, for example, drawings produced in the 1920's and 1930's.  To me they are works of art.  Yet I remember explaining to my grandfather, who had the luxury as a young graduate of spending a whole three days drafting a cover sheet for a large institutional project that he was working on in those days, how computers had changed Architecture.  He argued that the drawings were sterile and denude of any Architectural style that might indicate the author of the work or which practice it had come from, for each practice in those days had its own style.  I argued for speed and accuracy, and not having to calculate dimensions.  My grandfather shouted at me that he could do the math in his head ... I must admit, so could I ... but it was a skill that I no longer needed.

 

Likeways, Revit delivers a whole range of new features.  BIM is quite different to CAD drafting, and that's what we've got to get our head around.  Young people get that, just one of my pregnant staff considers it completely normal to have an "app" for her phone for timing the contractions during labour.  Apparently these days a wrist watch just won't cut it.  Whereas I use my phone as ... well ... a phone.

 

Yes, Revit continues to torture me.  But I'm learning to cope.  My office standards can change to match what I consider to be limitations of the software.  Instead of struggling with the model, I frequently use a few detail lines in an elevation.  It works.  No one knows.  I allow time to outline parts of my elevations to make them look better.  I draw my leader arrows as detail lines to get the wider arrow spacing and save it as a group.  It becomes second nature ... if you let it.

 

The problem is us.  We are getting old, technologically speaking.  The problems I'm having with Revit are torturing me just as my grandmother struggled with trying to use a microwave and my grandfather never learned to record his favourite show on the VCR.  That's just how it is.

 

Revit has another 15 years or so ahead of it, I would guess, before something bigger, bolder, and better usurps it.  Younger professionals will grasp that new technology too, just as they have Revit.  Those who learn Revit now, will be complaining about that new type of software in 20 years time.

 

It's called progress ... and that's just how it is !!!!

Message 52 of 58
MKEllis
in reply to: NigelParsons4560

Nigel,

 

There's a fundamental truth underlying what you've written - but it applies to many aspects of building, not just drawing.

 

It is a shift away from traditional craftsmenship and towards automation. It's happened in other industries, and it has finally got its grasp on architecture and building and shake it up.

 


I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing though - in fact in many areas it opens up so many opportunities in design and analysis that were just not possible with more craftsmenship methods. That's not to dismiss either, both approaches have their place.

 

My problem when it comes to Revit, is similar to other people's. It is a totally different way of working that architects of my generation (qualified 20+ years) will struggle with. We see that the end results are different than those we are used to seeing. We still remember hand drawn drawings and the flexibility we had to get them looking 'just right'.

 

I see in Revit a major step to actually limit the impact of the traditional 2d drawing in the design and building process. The focus on the model and building information certainly streamlines the process and seems to re-focus on providing more specific information in a far more coordinated fashion.

 

I personally see a problem in that in the way I design and communicate my design ideas to myself. That link of brain>eye>hand>pencil>paper>image>eye>brain is somehow hardwired in the way I visualise and design. It's a communicative and creative process that because it also involves the physicality of drawing it uses my brain in a different way. I don't get that with manipulating 3d images on a screen - sure they help me to see in 3d, but somehow it seems to bypass a creative part of my brain.

 

There is a plus side though - as architects we have sometimes been at fault in seeing drawings as a final product (hence our focus on them being 'art') - instead of a means of communicating building instructions to a contractor - or to sell an idea to a client. Revit and BIM places the emphasis towards the building again - at least that's is how I see it.

 

BIM / Revit requires a re-callibration of the way we work as architects. The introduction of a new tool that has been difficult for many architects to get to grips with runs the risk of eliminating experience from of the equation as practices re-tool with younger Revit capable graduates - but a sensible practice will quickly work out how to harness the design/building experience of their architects with the technical requirements of BIM/Revit.

Message 53 of 58
CADgrump
in reply to: NigelParsons4560

So now you've made me feel old... An excellent post, regardless.

I've spent the last week learning to cope in a model that needed updating. The project was done simultaneously in Revit and CAD - the first as a learning experience and the second so we could meet project deadlines.
Message 54 of 58
CADgrump
in reply to: MKEllis

Thanks for the thoughts. Despite my moniker, I enjoy good 'conversation'.

As our industry shifts to automated software, now, I've wondered if we're slowly putting ourselves out of work. Currently, software will generate all of the necessary views and schedules needed to generate a set of drawings. What the software doesn't have is design input, construction knowledge and code experience. Like all software companies, AutoDesk has to continue to adapt and make improvements or it will eventually fade away - like T-squares for drafting and film for cameras.

So what's next for Revit? Libraries of standard details? Building code analysis? In ten years' time, it's feasible that we could purchase the IBC 2021 integration package (with ADA bonus pack) that will verify our buildings get permitted without any questions. Revit would have also analyzed the construction materials and placement, then self-populated the appropriate details on the appropriate sheets (if we still use paper). What's left after that? Design.

Design is subjective to the viewer, though. My temple is your eyesore. Once Revit with Smart Code Software is integrated into 65-70% of architecture practices (20 years from now?), will there be a dramatic price cut, allowing Joe Citizen to purchase his own copy of Revit at Best Buy? For a few thousand dollars, Mr. & Mrs. Citizen could bring home their own Revit and, after working out their own masterpiece, take a flash drive over to the local AHU and walk out with a permitted file, ready for hand-off to their chosen contractor.

Is it time to invest in nano-technology flash drives?

Maybe I've read too much science fiction.
Message 55 of 58

1.  THANKS to vector for bringing the subject up, I know he stepped on a few toes, but he had valid points in some areas.  In fact, I will have to agree that -PRACTICALLY SPEAKING- BIM *is* Revit (or Archicad/whatever), to many who similarly say AutoCad is CAD.  It is not technically true, but it is close enough to the truth to serve as a rough approximation.  Insisting on some overly officious and technical definition is silly.

 

2. For those decrying that BIM is much more than Revit, a process, blah blah blah.  Sure, but it is a process which is *generally* not what actually happens in the real world.  IF you have design/build contracts make up a large part of your workload, then you are closer to a BIM process than what happens most of the time with a design/bid/build process which is the norm.

 

3. To that end, THAT is one of the main stumbling blocks I see to advocating and adopting Revit/BIM (and yes, I"m going to use 'Revit' to mean BIM).  The traditional process -MANY times to the industry's detriment- is based on 'adversarial' relationships, NOT cooperative ones.  EVERYONE in the process is looking to minimize THEIR responsibililty (read: cost), and put as much on the other parties as possible: that is simply the nature of what happens under a low-bid realm of doing business.  Further, the legal responsibilities and liabilities are unclear to a lot of adopters, and THAT is a scary unknown to them.

 

4. Even though I am an old dog (started out on the boards, ink on vellum, leroy lettering, etc), I am learning the new tricks as they come down the pike.  I have ZERO doubt that Revit/etc is *the* way to go, but it is not all the way there, AND I foresee the traditional construction practices being more of an impediment than learning software.

 

5. In many ways, this old dog is better prepared to deal with Revit than new kids on the block.  While I have years of CAD practices to unlearn, and the youngsters may have open minds, they *probably* don't have much of a grasp on real-world construction practices, much less how a building actually gets built.  I do.  That experience should translate to more effective use of the software.

 

6. Nigel hit many nails squarely on the head.  Even with 'cold' AutoCad, there are ways to dress up and create a 'style' that 'looks good'.  Revit seems to handcuff you in ways that discourage that, and you end up with the same bland drawings from every office.  The 'art' of drafting is dead.  Long live the King Model!

 

my two centavos

Message 56 of 58
cfrafihbari
in reply to: vector2

In a nutshell how to improve revit?

make it better than Archicad

Message 57 of 58
octavio2
in reply to: vector2

Just curious:  Vector posted the original triggering message of this thread in the year 2009.  Do what is stated in that original posting of 2009, or part of it,  still seems valid today in 2014?  Have things changed? 

Wonder what others in the construction and architectural industry have to say about that original posting about 5 years later.

Message 58 of 58
NigelParsons4560
in reply to: octavio2

Hi Octavio,

 

Well, reading Vector's original post again has me thinking.

 

Five years on from that post I must disagree with the expectation that Revit is only suitable for large projects.  Most of my projects are under $5m construction cost and vary between commercial, industrial, residential and small public buildings such as church renovations.  Revit handles all of these quite well.  At the other end of the spectrum, a colleague of mine is involved in a large project for a shopping mall.  Offices in several states have documentation teams on different aspects of the job.  All works fine, except for several occasions where the data file has been corrupted.  This has caused several days downtime and my colleague has been left to her own devices while the problem is resolved.

 

If I used AutoCAD to prepare my drawings today it would take me a great deal longer.  That said, I don't use Revit the way Revit programmers expect me to.  See my post on p6 of this thread to appreciate some of my frustrations.  We still outline our elevations with detail lines to give them more depth, we still draw leader arrows by hand because we like the leader arrow head to have an angle of 150°.  We draw our windows as curtain walls and do manual window schedules because window families are just too cumbersome and inflexible.  On small jobs we can't afford the time to create a new family for each window type, so we use other geometry that behaves the right way to get the elevations and sections right ... let's face it, at the end of the day our clients are paying for drawings!!!!

 

As to other consultants using AutoCAD, I have to agree with Vector.  Every engineer (structural, civil, mechanical and electrical) that I know uses AutoCAD.  Likewise, every surveyor I know also uses AutoCAD.  This would amount to some 30 or 40 consultants.  Of those, only 2 or 3 ever talk about the latest version or upgrades and probably 50% are using software that is at least 10 years old.  This leads me to suspect that most of them are using illegal software.  Most are small businesses or sole traders.  I'm often having to convert my AutoCAD files exported from Revit 2014 back to AutoCAD 2000 for another consultant to use. 

 

I find that disappointing, but also appreciate that not all consultants will stick with the rigorous upgrade path that Autodesk imposes.  Autodesk is its own worst enemy in this regard.  We are on subscription for the Architectural suite.  We get a new version every year.  We only install every second year.  So, I will never install my recently received 2015 upgrade.  It's not the $1800 per seat per year cost ... because I continue to pay that for software I don't use ... it's the down time in doing the upgrades properly so that software doesn't get installed on the C: drive, which we reserve for the system, sorting out the libraries, paths to folders, learning the changes to the menus and ribbon, fixing up the printing options ... and so the list goes on.  Add to that the training time for new features and it works out to be about 50 hours per seat of downtime.

 

So, every second release of Revit I receive IS sitting on the shelf doing nothing, just like Vector said.  Most consultants in engineering and surveying disciplines are STILL using AutoCAD ... many might be using old or even illegal copies.  But Revit is a very productive tool and, despite my 28 year relationship with AutoCAD, has become the software of choice for documenting architecture in our office.

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