Automated MEP projects

[Repy]

Hello there.

I'd like to know if there's a software or plugin that allows you to (semi-) automatically create MEP projects, e.g.:

(Electrical)

Once you have the masonry, you position the wall switches and plugs (set the type, wattage, etc), and the program automatically projects the wiring throught the shortest route, including the gauge and protection, and possibly even the switchbox.

The same basic concept could be applied for hydraulic and air also, however, depending on the dimensions the program would need you to inform the areas/walls where it can place ducts/plumbs.

Any recommendation?

Thanks in advance.

[Repy]

Maybe AutoCAD 'lectrical can do that, but I'm not sure if it can interact with walls and stuff. Anyone confirms?

[Alfredo_Medina]

I assume that you have tried Revit MEP already? It has some features for automatic generation of layouts; but I appreciate more the manual tools: pipe, duct, conduit, and fittings, because the automatic features fall short of the target of creating realistic connections that really work as is usually built in the field. So, the best combination is still some help from the software plus a well informed engineer or operator with caution and good judgement.

[Repy]

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I've tried Revit MEP but I couldn't find a way to generate electrical layouts. I've read the documentation and it seems it's not possible to do that in this case. (incl. routing and detailing)

My brother is an electrical engineer and he also thinks it doesn't make sense to do everything from ground up every time considering todays technology.

If it were only the layout, but it seems you have to do pretty much everything manually. Most things however could be automated. I see no reason not to automate the repetitive and "robotic" stuff, some things you don't decide, you just follow the regulations and there's nothing a computer can't do I think, so why not automate this kind of thing?

What are the electrical engineers using nowadays?

Thanks.

[CoreyDaun]

We use Revit MEP for electrical engineering and there is no built-in "auto-electrical-layout" tool. There are a few automatic processes, such as creating wiring graphics for an electrical circuit, but that often falls short. I have two comments:

The first is that Revit MEP is still way behind on the electrical side. There are a lot of fundamental aspects of electrical design that are incorrect or are flat out impossible to do, so I would think it'd be a long way off before I would trust it to automatically perform such a task for us. As an basic example to Revit shortcomings, one still cannot create a simple 3-Way Switch in Revit.

The second is that I believe that (perhaps depending on the industry you work in) creating the electrical layout, even for general receptacles, should require conscious design. There are too many variations in the architectural design of buildings to outright automate this process and produce consistently acceptable results. There are too many variables in design such as a room's intended use and what about countertops and casework? Even if an electrical engineer checked the design afterwards, the chances that a stupid error gets missed are much higher.

[Repy]

Thank you CADastrophe.

It's arguable wether it's possible to automate some things, however, the program should always let the user fine tune and correct possible errors.

Anyway, I think it doesn't even offer very basic automatization, like to trace the shortest route in case of a conduit, what can get complex (considering the number of "obstacles"), and can be automatized. In case of an error, for example the program places a segment where it couldn't be; in this case the user would correct that (maybe by adding waypoints or something).

A three-way switch is a very basic thing, if Revit MEP can't do that, then it surely won't suit my needs.

Any recommendation on a software that can interoperate with Revit and has some advanced tools especially for electrical engineering? Maybe AutoCAD MEP or AutoCAD Electrical, but I'm not sure and I don't have much time to learn and try them only to discover they doesn't have what I need. Maybe a non-Autodesk solution for that.

Thanks.

[CoreyDaun]

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Repy wrote:

"It's arguable wether it's possible to automate some things, however, the program should always let the user fine tune and correct possible errors.

Anyway, I think it doesn't even offer very basic automatization, like to trace the shortest route in case of a conduit, what can get complex (considering the number of "obstacles"), and can be automatized. In case of an error, for example the program places a segment where it couldn't be; in this case the user would correct that (maybe by adding waypoints or something)."

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Revit is a program in perpetual development, and it's improving with each release (albeit slowly). Such functionality might be possible at some point - they do have tools that automatically connect Pipes and Ducts into a System (not create the entire layout, through) and such functionality may eventually follow for Conduit. In Revit's current state, Conduit does not contain any actual electrical information - it's basically there for modeling purposes.

Regarding automation, I don't think it would be wise to do for an entire Project, but it would be a helpful tool to be able to automate the layout on a room-by-room basis, with the user specifying the particulars like distance between receptacles. But this concept is still far off right now, as far as I can tell.

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Repy wrote:

A three-way switch is a very basic thing, if Revit MEP can't do that, then it surely won't suit my needs.

Any recommendation on a software that can interoperate with Revit and has some advanced tools especially for electrical engineering? Maybe AutoCAD MEP or AutoCAD Electrical, but I'm not sure and I don't have much time to learn and try them only to discover they doesn't have what I need. Maybe a non-Autodesk solution for that.

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The incapability of the 3W Switch is a hurdle that can be overcome. It can be accomplished with various "work-around" methods (which is an extremely common term in the Revit MEP world). Revit is still very powerful despite such flaws. There are some aspects of electrical design we do not trust Revit with, but we do make very frequent use of its abilities of Tagging and Scheduling.

Regarding other programs - I only have familiarity with AutoCAD and Revit, so I don't have the experience to provide a valid opinion.

[Repy]

Well, looks like Revit MEP is top-notch for HVAC and hydraulic plumbings, it provides analysis and simulation and comply with the american standards, so I'm considering using it plus AutoCAD Electrical, or maybe just using AutoCAD MEP, but I can't decide.

If I could find a detailed list of all the features these programs mentioned have to compare them side by side It would be much easier to decide, however, even the promotional stuff is kinda "basic".

So I'm waiting for a recommendation from people who knows them.

Thank you for your help.