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non CAD related question to all you gearheads

18 REPLIES 18
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Message 1 of 19
Anonymous
871 Views, 18 Replies

non CAD related question to all you gearheads

Just a question to make sure I am thinking right on a home project.

I want to put a programable negative coil trigger tach on my old GMC 305 V6
engine and I need a coil pulse count per revolution of a 6 cylinder
engine.......what would the pulse count be?

I came up with my answer (it seems very simple) but I want to verify it with
more than just my feeble mind 🙂

thanks and sorry for the off CAD question
18 REPLIES 18
Message 2 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Hi Albert,

 

  For a four-stroke, six cylinder engine,
it takes two engine revolutions to fire all six coils.

 

  So, that coil pulse count you're looking for
is three (only three cylinders will fire in one engine revolution).

 

  Good question.  I have a Nissan
inline-six cylinder turbo, and I removed the stock EFI and replaced it with an
aftermarket one.  I went completely distributorless, and I'm running six
Denso coils (taken from a 2003 GMC Suburban, an LS1 engine) so I can run "coil
on plug".  They have integral ignitors and I don't have to run "wasted
spark".  I also run six Mazda RX7 injectors that can now fire sequentially
(versus batch-fire in the old Bosch L-Jetronic EFI).  I'm a sick
gearhead.  ;o)

 

Best regards, -Hugh

 


src="http://home.comcast.net/~hughhenderson/pics/6th_annual_NWZ_show_n_shine/hughdogz.JPG"
align=baseline border=0>

 

 
Message 3 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous




style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks Hugh! and yes you do seem to
be somewhat caught up in the whole gearhead thing (to say the
least)...........counseling is an option you know, but if you are happy in your
addiction then I say....have fun!



face="Times New Roman"> 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The car is very nice! and I assume
the white writing is the ET in the 1/8th?, if it is then that is flat
cooking!



face="Times New Roman"> 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My Nissan is not quite up to the
same performance specs as yours; (a bone stock 93 Sentra with 125K miles) but
it's still pretty peppy for what it is.



face="Times New Roman"> 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I need to get a tach. in my 64 GMC
4000 dump flat bed so I don't over rev the old 305 V6 hence the pulse count
question (max RPM is 3800 on the old gal.) 🙂



face="Times New Roman"> 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Albert


 


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


Hi Albert,

 

  For a four-stroke, six
cylinder engine, it takes two engine revolutions to fire
all six coils.

 

  So, that coil pulse count you're looking
for is three (only three cylinders will fire in one engine
revolution).

 

  Good question.  I have a Nissan
inline-six cylinder turbo, and I removed the stock EFI and replaced it with an
aftermarket one.  I went completely distributorless, and I'm running six
Denso coils (taken from a 2003 GMC Suburban, an LS1 engine) so I can run "coil
on plug".  They have integral ignitors and I don't have to run "wasted
spark".  I also run six Mazda RX7 injectors that can now fire
sequentially (versus batch-fire in the old Bosch L-Jetronic EFI).  I'm a
sick gearhead.  ;o)

 

Best regards, -Hugh

 


src="http://home.comcast.net/~hughhenderson/pics/6th_annual_NWZ_show_n_shine/hughdogz.JPG"
align=baseline border=0>

 


size=2>
 
Message 4 of 19
Chicoman
in reply to: Anonymous

Nice car Hugh,

Is that a Datsun 280ZX ?
My brother-in-law had one. I could throw it in the 3rd gear and still spin the crap out of thos tires 🙂

Sorry can't be much help here otherwise,
Message 5 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Hi Chicoman,

 

  Yes, you are correct.  It is a 1982
280ZX that I've been modifying over the years.  I installed a KAAZ limited
slip differential that was pulled out of a Nissan 240SX, so the inside tire
spinning going around a curve has been cured.  ;o)

 

  Here is another shot (since it is
Friday)

 


src="http://home.comcast.net/~hughhenderson/Willard/s130zt.JPG" align=baseline
border=0>
Message 6 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous




style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

Hi Albert,


 


<<
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The car is very nice! and I assume
the white writing is the ET in the 1/8th?, if it is then that is flat
cooking!>>



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">  Actually, it is just a random
number given when I received my racing permit.  I run the 1/4 mile
drag at Portland International Raceway.  Stock, the engine is 180
horsepower and runs ~16.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile (0-400 meter).  Last
season, I was able to get it down to 14.1 seconds.



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">  Here is a video of me racing
my buddie who also has a 280ZX:
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmDyyxdzgw8">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmDyyxdzgw8



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">  I'm in the process of
building the engine up some more.  Installing a hybrid T3/T04E
turbochanger, I ported the head and did a bunch more work to it, ported the
exhaust manifold, made a 3-inch downpipe and 3" mandrel bent exhaust (welded
together 38 pieces total with six v-band clamps for easy dissasembly). 
Then I purchased a SPEC flywheel, pressure plate and six-puck friction
disk.  I'm hoping to get into the 12's.  8o)



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><<
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My Nissan is not quite up to the
same performance specs as yours; (a bone stock 93 Sentra with 125K miles) but
it's still pretty peppy for what it is.>>



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">  Those are great cars! 
If it has the SR20DE engine, it has tons of potential.



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><<
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I need to get a tach. in my 64 GMC
4000 dump flat bed so I don't over rev the old 305 V6 hence the pulse count
question (max RPM is 3800 on the old gal.) 🙂
>>



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">  If you can get your hands on
a MSD 6AL capacitive discharge ignition system, you can take advantage of the
"soft rev" limiter.  Just slip in a different "pill" to change
the max RPM.



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">  Thanks for the great comments
Guys!!



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 



style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sincerely
-Hugh

Message 7 of 19
pauldoubet
in reply to: Anonymous

Just for fun how many times does your old (with breaker points) 4 cycle single cylinder push mower fire per revolution? Edited by: pauldoubet on May 15, 2009 12:41 PM
Message 8 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Hi Paul,

 

  I realize I could have worded it
better.  I should have wrote something like "For any four-stroke
engine, it takes two crank revolutions for the spark event to
occur".

 

  For a single piston motor, I think it would
fire 1/2 time per revolution  ;o)

 

  I have an old-fashioned mechanical "Leave it
to Beaver" type push mower, so I cannot hook up a tack to verify.  I can
probably figure a way to install a tachometer on my 2-stroke Husqvarna
weed-wacker though.

 

Cheers, -Hugh
Message 9 of 19
pauldoubet
in reply to: Anonymous

"For any four-stroke engine, it takes two crank revolutions for the spark event to occur". For a single piston motor, I think it would fire 1/2 time per revolution ;o)

Wrong answer...lets see how long it takes for someone to think this one through.

Paul
Message 10 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Hi Paul,

 

  A lawnmower engine might not
be "smart" enough to know if the top dead center position is at the end of
the compression stroke, or the exhaust stroke.  I'm guessing it fires
at both positions, so I'll change my answer to one spark per revolution. 
It will depend on if it can sense only the crank angle, or if
it is set up to sense the cam angle.

 

  I stand corrected, a 4-cycle Otto cycle
engine only needs one spark event per two engine revolutions per
cylinder.

 

  I hope this isn't strike two for me, I'll be
really embarrased if it is.

 

Thanks, -Hugh
Message 11 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


My guess is 4 revs per fire

 

You have:

 

Fire Stroke

Exhaust Stroke

Intake Stroke

Fire Stroke


--
Dennis Jeffrey, Autodesk Inventor Certified
Expert
Autodesk Manufacturing Implementation Certified
Expert.
Instructor/Author/Sr. App Engr. Tel. (260) 399-6615
AIP 2008 SP3,
AIP 2009-SP1 PcCillin AV
AMD 64 x2 3.0 Ghz, 8GB RAM GeForce 9800GT 512MB

XP Pro SP3, Windows XP Silver Theme

href="http://teknigroup.com">http://teknigroup.com
Message 12 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


My previous answer is wrong. 1/2 rotation per
stroke.


--
Dennis Jeffrey, Autodesk Inventor Certified
Expert
Autodesk Manufacturing Implementation Certified
Expert.
Instructor/Author/Sr. App Engr. Tel. (260) 399-6615
AIP 2008 SP3,
AIP 2009-SP1 PcCillin AV
AMD 64 x2 3.0 Ghz, 8GB RAM GeForce 9800GT 512MB

XP Pro SP3, Windows XP Silver Theme

href="http://teknigroup.com">http://teknigroup.com
Message 13 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


This is great I got all you deep thinkers digging
even deeper into the grey matter!

 

Anyway, my read is on a single cylinder 4 stroke
engine, there would be 2 revolutions of the crank for each time
the coil field collapses.

 

So on a 6 cylinder engine there should be 3 power
strokes per rev and consequently 3 coil fires per rev. (gotta have proper
ballance ya know)

 

So my tach dip switches should be set for 3
pulses per rev to get my proper RPM reading.
 


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


My previous answer is wrong. 1/2 rotation per
stroke.


--
Dennis Jeffrey, Autodesk Inventor Certified
Expert
Autodesk Manufacturing Implementation Certified
Expert.
Instructor/Author/Sr. App Engr. Tel. (260) 399-6615
AIP 2008
SP3, AIP 2009-SP1 PcCillin AV
AMD 64 x2 3.0 Ghz, 8GB RAM GeForce 9800GT
512MB
XP Pro SP3, Windows XP Silver Theme

href="http://teknigroup.com">http://teknigroup.com
Message 14 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


ya ya, I know only one L in balance, just a little
off today....it is Friday after all.


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


This is great I got all you deep thinkers digging
even deeper into the grey matter!

 

Anyway, my read is on a single cylinder 4 stroke
engine, there would be 2 revolutions of the crank for each time
the coil field collapses.

 

So on a 6 cylinder engine there should be 3 power
strokes per rev and consequently 3 coil fires per rev. (gotta have proper
ballance ya know)

 

So my tach dip switches should be set for 3
pulses per rev to get my proper RPM reading.
 


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


My previous answer is wrong. 1/2 rotation per
stroke.


--
Dennis Jeffrey, Autodesk Inventor Certified
Expert
Autodesk Manufacturing Implementation Certified
Expert.
Instructor/Author/Sr. App Engr. Tel. (260) 399-6615
AIP 2008
SP3, AIP 2009-SP1 PcCillin AV
AMD 64 x2 3.0 Ghz, 8GB RAM GeForce 9800GT
512MB
XP Pro SP3, Windows XP Silver Theme

href="http://teknigroup.com">http://teknigroup.com
Message 15 of 19
pauldoubet
in reply to: Anonymous

This is probably not a well known fact but your old single cylinder 4 cycle push mower does indeed fire on both the compression and the exhaust stroke. Obviously the latter is a wasted spark, but since the breaker points are driven off the top end of the crank shaft it fires on each revolution.

So the correct answer is once per revolution.

Have a great weekend, Paul
Message 16 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


I'm told that the Harley V twin (at least old ones) also fire on both
strokes, prehaps partially acounting for their unique sound.


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
This
is probably not a well known fact but your old single cylinder 4 cycle push
mower does indeed fire on both the compression and the exhaust stroke.
Obviously the latter is a wasted spark, but since the breaker points are
driven off the top end of the crank shaft it fires on each revolution. So the
correct answer is once per revolution. Have a great weekend,
Paul
Message 17 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Hi Ray,

 

  I was under the impression that the unique
sound of a V-Twin engine resulted from the fact that the two connecting rods
share the same crank pin at a 45 degree angle (I could be wrong
though).

 

For all you Gearheads, here is another "Friday
Question":

 

  Why do the European "exotic" V-8's have
a different exhaust note than the American V-8's?  Hint: it has to do with
the crankshaft design.

 

-Hugh
Message 18 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


It's lika the world Hugh, she'sa flat.


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


Hi Ray,

 

  I was under the impression that the unique
sound of a V-Twin engine resulted from the fact that the two connecting rods
share the same crank pin at a 45 degree angle (I could be wrong
though).

 

For all you Gearheads, here is another "Friday
Question":

 

  Why do the European "exotic" V-8's
have a different exhaust note than the American V-8's?  Hint: it has to
do with the crankshaft design.

 

-Hugh
Message 19 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous


Hi Mark, you are correct!!

 

  European exotic V-8's typically employ
a flat-plane crankshaft, while American V-8's are typically
cross-plane.

 

Thanks, -Hugh

 


 

 

 

 

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