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Skeletal Modeling Excercise

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Message 1 of 14
Anonymous
170 Views, 13 Replies

Skeletal Modeling Excercise

I got to fooling around this afternoon, trying to design a small (about 8") press brake that could be used in a hydraulic press, and welded up out of common steel stock. The design quickly got a bit ridiculous, and I abandoned it and went a totally different route (it was ugly and impractical), but the model itself is kind of interesting. It deals with a couple of questions that folks have had about skeletal modeling techniques lately, so I thought I'd share. Here's a few notable things about this assembly: -The first part (001) is the master for all the parts in the assembly. This is handy, as you don't have to have an extra file hanging around, and the driving sketches are all available in the assembly. When deriving into a new part, just reject the solid, and accept everything else. -At one point I felt a sketch was getting too crowded, so I placed a second sketch on the same plane, projected a couple of important points from the first sketch, and drew an additional profile. This makes finding profiles easier in the derived parts, but since one sketch drives the other, the geometry still interacts correctly. If I hadn't have done that, the entire assembly would have come from just two sketches -The derived matrix of parts is quite complex. There are derived-mirrored parts (made from parts that are themselves derived from the master part) that form the other side of the symmetrical sub-assemblies. The sub-assemblies are then derived into another part file to represent the weldment, and those are inserted into the main assembly. It's all put together using Kent's insert-n-fix routine; no assembly constraints were used. Anyway, the whole thing took about an hour to do. If anyone has been wanting to learn more about skeletal modeling, take a look. I'm posting the file set to the customer-files group. Cheers, Walt
13 REPLIES 13
Message 2 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

> I'm posting the file set to the customer-files group. > Errr...I'm *trying * to post the file set. It keeps erroring out. I'll try again tomorrow. Walt
Message 3 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I'd be very interested to see your model Walt. I am working on several models at the moment and trying to streamline my methods, it gets complicated especially when you derive derived parts. One of my models uses the master part which is a shell (like egg shell) which is taken through the derived derived part as a surface and the surface is used to trim (via split and delete face) the final part to fit inside the shell. I find the only way I can keep track of what relies on what when working on the model is to draw a flow diagram! 1) What's the problems with deriving derived parts / any limitations? 2) Any pros / cons with deriving parts before you place into an assembly, performance wise? 3) I realise that skeletal modelling and constructing your master part techniques are any thing you want to make it and there are no hard and fast rules or are there, do's and don'ts? Hearing from some experts and some different techniques would be helpful. -- Laurence, Power is nothing without Control --- "Walt Jaquith" wrote in message news:40651f63$1_3@newsprd01... > > I'm posting the file set to the customer-files group. > > > > Errr...I'm *trying * to post the file set. It keeps erroring out. I'll try > again tomorrow. > > Walt > >
Message 4 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

A couple of years ago we were mesmerized and intoxicated by skeletal modelling. We could drive most any aspect of some failry complicated machines from a single or heiarchy of skeletal masters. But, the challenge is to go back in and try to figure out what you did a year layer... DOH! Suppose an employee (who is most familiar with the model) quits in the middle of a project and you have to jump in to try and figure things out and continue on.... DOH! Or, if we are contracted to supply native IV models to a customer it is unrealistic to expect them to be able sort things out.... DOH! And, things change during the course of a design - be damn sure the design concept is solid before investing your time. You can end up scrapping and entire model because it is too interdependant to introduce a radical change to a design late in the game.... DOH! Or, try to salvage and re-used partial data in one project that is tied to a skeletal master in a different project... DOH! Well, we toned things down quite a bit. We are using skeletal models for weldments only. I wouldn't give up skeletal modeling for this purpose. Though in applying the "KISS" philosophy, we have been overall much more successful. You might be thinking "if properly planned, documented, and executed these problems won't exist".... and to that I ask "what colour is the sky in your world?" Just be cautious... that's all. Dave
Message 5 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

What naming convention do you use and do you use one master or a bunch of subs? Whether radical changes are possible is dependent on how the sketch is laid out constrained and dimensioned, no? Sketches have to be constrained/dimensioned so that you aren't forced to delete any projected geometry which will cause you to have to re-derive the part, so while planning is critical, it's also fortune telling. FAIK, no systems are good at reading minds either. ~Larry "David Radlin" wrote in message news:40658c02$1_1@newsprd01... > A couple of years ago we were mesmerized and intoxicated by skeletal > modelling. We could drive most any aspect of some failry complicated > machines from a single or heiarchy of skeletal masters. > > But, the challenge is to go back in and try to figure out what you did a > year layer... DOH! Suppose an employee (who is most familiar with the > model) quits in the middle of a project and you have to jump in to try and > figure things out and continue on.... DOH! Or, if we are contracted to > supply native IV models to a customer it is unrealistic to expect them to be > able sort things out.... DOH! > > And, things change during the course of a design - be damn sure the design > concept is solid before investing your time. You can end up scrapping and > entire model because it is too interdependant to introduce a radical change > to a design late in the game.... DOH! > > Or, try to salvage and re-used partial data in one project that is tied to a > skeletal master in a different project... DOH! > > Well, we toned things down quite a bit. We are using skeletal models for > weldments only. I wouldn't give up skeletal modeling for this purpose. > Though in applying the "KISS" philosophy, we have been overall much more > successful. > > You might be thinking "if properly planned, documented, and executed these > problems won't exist".... and to that I ask "what colour is the sky in your > world?" > > Just be cautious... that's all. > > Dave > > > > > > >
Message 6 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Well, I still can't post to c-f for some reason, but I'll keep trying. Comments below.... "Laurence Yeandle" wrote in message news:406550a3$1_2@newsprd01... > I'd be very interested to see your model Walt. > I am working on several models at the moment and trying to streamline my > methods, it gets complicated especially when you derive derived parts. > One of my models uses the master part which is a shell (like egg shell) > which is taken through the derived derived part as a surface and the surface > is used to trim (via split and delete face) the final part to fit inside the > shell. I've done the same thing, except with a solid instead of a shell. I created a basic shape of the main assembly I wanted to create (an assymetrical sub-woofer box). Then I placed sketches on the sides, and drew profiles of the various panels. In the derived part, I accepted everything (solid and all), and created the panels by using intersect extrude. There are lots of ways to do a skeletal setup. > I find the only way I can keep track of what relies on what when working on > the model is to draw a flow diagram! > > 1) What's the problems with deriving derived parts / any limitations? > > 2) Any pros / cons with deriving parts before you place into an assembly, > performance > wise? > I've never had a problem with performance issues. In this project some of the derived relationships are three-deep by the time you get to the main assembly. But if I change the master file and update the main assembly, it only takes a moment for everything to adapt. > 3) I realise that skeletal modelling and constructing your master part > techniques are any thing you want to make it and there are no hard and fast > rules or are there, do's and don'ts? > It really helps if you're careful to name all your sketches and work geometry in the master. If I can ever get these files uploaded, you'll see that even in this relatively small project, everything is named. Another thing; Inventor has improved greatly in finding a sketch profile that's buried in a bunch of others, but taking care in creating your sketchs still helps. In Autocad circles, it's the sign of a rank amatuer to have lines laying over the top of each other. With master sketching, you sometimes have to do it. > Hearing from some experts and some different techniques would be helpful. > As David pointed out, modeling skeletal can quickly get over-complicated. But that's true of any big assembly, expecially an adaptive one. Who of us wants to try to work on an assembly of any kind that someone else set up? I get around this by being a one-man show. In an office with lots of seats, it must be a real bearcat. It's true that to really do this right would require perfect precognition. But in a situation where the design is changing a lot, my worst enemy is still long streams of interdependent assembly constraints. And a skeletal setup ain't got none o' those. > -- > Laurence, > > Power is nothing without Control > --- >
Message 7 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

All excellent points & why we only use skeletal modeling for curved or elliptical assemblies that use several layers of material or some jig-saw puzzles that are supplied by an architect that we import from AutoCAD. -- Dave Hoder Product Design Engineer idX Seattle www.idxcorporation.com "David Radlin" wrote in message news:40658c02$1_1@newsprd01... > > And, things change during the course of a design - be damn sure the design > concept is solid before investing your time. You can end up scrapping and > entire model because it is too interdependant to introduce a radical change > to a design late in the game.... DOH! > > Or, try to salvage and re-used partial data in one project that is tied to a > skeletal master in a different project... DOH! > > Well, we toned things down quite a bit. We are using skeletal models for > weldments only. I wouldn't give up skeletal modeling for this purpose. > Though in applying the "KISS" philosophy, we have been overall much more > successful. > > You might be thinking "if properly planned, documented, and executed these > problems won't exist".... and to that I ask "what colour is the sky in your > world?" > > Just be cautious... that's all. > > Dave > > > > > > >
Message 8 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Walt, Did you post it yet? Can't see it. -- Aaron R. Friedman ARF Designs Walt Jaquith wrote: > I got to fooling around this afternoon, trying to design a small (about 8") > press brake that could be used in a hydraulic press, and welded up out of > common steel stock. The design quickly got a bit ridiculous, and I > abandoned it and went a totally different route (it was ugly and > impractical), but the model itself is kind of interesting. It deals with a > couple of questions that folks have had about skeletal modeling techniques > lately, so I thought I'd share. Here's a few notable things about this > assembly: > > -The first part (001) is the master for all the parts in the assembly. This > is handy, as you don't have to have an extra file hanging around, and the > driving sketches are all available in the assembly. When deriving into a > new part, just reject the solid, and accept everything else. > > -At one point I felt a sketch was getting too crowded, so I placed a second > sketch on the same plane, projected a couple of important points from the > first sketch, and drew an additional profile. This makes finding profiles > easier in the derived parts, but since one sketch drives the other, the > geometry still interacts correctly. If I hadn't have done that, the entire > assembly would have come from just two sketches > > -The derived matrix of parts is quite complex. There are derived-mirrored > parts (made from parts that are themselves derived from the master part) > that form the other side of the symmetrical sub-assemblies. The > sub-assemblies are then derived into another part file to represent the > weldment, and those are inserted into the main assembly. It's all put > together using Kent's insert-n-fix routine; no assembly constraints were > used. > > Anyway, the whole thing took about an hour to do. If anyone has been > wanting to learn more about skeletal modeling, take a look. I'm posting the > file set to the customer-files group. > > Cheers, > Walt > > >
Message 9 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

"Aaron R. Friedman" wrote in message news:406C3FD4.1030800@excite.com... > Walt, > > Did you post it yet? Can't see it. > Sorry; got sidetracked by RL (Real Life). I just tried again, and still can't post to CF. I'll see if I can't figure out why. Walt
Message 10 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Walt - I see you are using OE6. Are you using "attach"? -- Anne Brown Discussion Groups Administrator Autodesk, Inc. Walt Jaquith wrote: > > "Aaron R. Friedman" wrote in message > news:406C3FD4.1030800@excite.com... > > Walt, > > > > Did you post it yet? Can't see it. > > > > Sorry; got sidetracked by RL (Real Life). I just tried again, and still > can't post to CF. I'll see if I can't figure out why.
Message 11 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Walt - See your post in Inventor Customer File group for Kent's and others answers. Files are limited to 1 meg. -- Anne Brown Discussion Groups Administrator Autodesk, Inc. Walt Jaquith wrote: > > "Aaron R. Friedman" wrote in message > news:406C3FD4.1030800@excite.com... > > Walt, > > > > Did you post it yet? Can't see it. > > > > Sorry; got sidetracked by RL (Real Life). I just tried again, and still > can't post to CF. I'll see if I can't figure out why. > > Walt
Message 12 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi Anne, Yep; I just hit the paperclip like always.... Walt "Anne Brown" wrote in message news:406C607E.6C3E860C@autodesk.com... > Walt - > > I see you are using OE6. Are you using "attach"? > -- > Anne Brown > Discussion Groups Administrator > Autodesk, Inc. > > Walt Jaquith wrote: > > > > "Aaron R. Friedman" wrote in message > > news:406C3FD4.1030800@excite.com... > > > Walt, > > > > > > Did you post it yet? Can't see it. > > > > > > > Sorry; got sidetracked by RL (Real Life). I just tried again, and still > > can't post to CF. I'll see if I can't figure out why.
Message 13 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Got it; thanks Anne. I sent the files to Kent, too. I'll split them and resent this afternoon if they dont' show up before that. Cheers, Walt "Anne Brown" wrote in message news:406C61B5.E2A42A8F@autodesk.com... > Walt - > > See your post in Inventor Customer File group for Kent's and > others answers. Files are limited to 1 meg. > -- > Anne Brown > Discussion Groups Administrator > Autodesk, Inc. > > Walt Jaquith wrote: > > > > "Aaron R. Friedman" wrote in message > > news:406C3FD4.1030800@excite.com... > > > Walt, > > > > > > Did you post it yet? Can't see it. > > > > > > > Sorry; got sidetracked by RL (Real Life). I just tried again, and still > > can't post to CF. I'll see if I can't figure out why. > > > > Walt
Message 14 of 14
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

It's there now, in two parts. Thanks Kent 🙂

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