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Large Assembly recommendations for Workstations?

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Message 1 of 48
warrenandy
5408 Views, 47 Replies

Large Assembly recommendations for Workstations?

We have a user who's job it is to combine all of the subassembly into one large model. These are tire assembly machines with thousands of parts including nuts and bolts. The top level is looking to be between 150,000 - 200,000 occurrences and probably 50,000 - 75,000 unique parts. So we are talking huge amounts of data. Currently he has a Win 7 Precision 64-bit, 16 GB RAM, Quadro 2000 Nivida 1 GB, and a 512 SSD HD. Not too shabbily of a Mobile workstation. But it is not big enough.

 

So what can we do to get more HP (Pun intended) out of this Dell? Then what would be a recommended monster workstation (It would be for the dept to share, but would be a tower not a laptop)?

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
47 REPLIES 47
Message 2 of 48
innovatenate
in reply to: warrenandy

The below link contains helpful information regarding settings and hardware recommendations for handling large assemblies in Inventor. 

 

http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/Inventor/enu/2013/Help/1310-Autodesk1310/1655-Assembli1655/1806-Work_wi...

 

You may want to review each item in this wiki article to make sure nothing has been overlooked on the current machine. I hope this information is helpful to you.

 

 




Nathan Chandler
Principal Specialist
Message 3 of 48
mcgyvr
in reply to: innovatenate

are you expecting different answers from this same question you asked a few days ago?????

 

Your post hasn't even made it to page 2 yet..

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Autodesk-Inventor/Help-me-Spec-out-a-dream-machine/td-p/3533674

 



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Inventor 2023 - Dell Precision 5570

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Message 4 of 48
warrenandy
in reply to: mcgyvr

If you look at the date this one was asked first, no one responded. I mentioned that in the other post people did not respond to this one... It is an Emergency type situation so I needed answers ASAP.

 

I actually had a really good conference call yesterday with a couple Electrical Engineers from Dell. They are going to custom build me a "Special Machine". I will let everyone know if it does the job for my user or not.

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
Message 5 of 48
mcgyvr
in reply to: warrenandy

oh yeah sorry didn't see the date..

Good luck with the Dell "experience" 🙂

Let us know what they spec out and there are a few "benchmarking" tests users have done here to attempt to compare hardware setups.. Might be nice if you posted those results.. searching for benchmark should get you to the right post.



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Inventor 2023 - Dell Precision 5570

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Message 6 of 48
blair
in reply to: mcgyvr

Probably the fastest Xeon processor you can get with at least 24Gb of memory. If you are going to be keeping the files locally on the machine, look at multiply hard-drives in RAID10 configuration (speed vs redundancy). Probably the fastest graphics card your budget will allow.


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Message 7 of 48
TheRham
in reply to: warrenandy

The Quadro 2000 is hardly "top-of-the-line"... for something that crazy, I'd want a whole lot more than that... it's not even in the ballpark, IMO.  I have to wonder if Inventor is designed for that many parts... WOW, lol!  In any event, I have serious doubts that Dell is really who you want to be talking to.  I'll be curious to see what they put together though, how it works... and how much it costs.  I would think at that level it goes beyond "how much", and is just as much about "of what"... right down to the motherboard.  1000 go karts won't beat a lamborghini... and Dell does not make Lamborghinis.

 

From the Autodesk wikihelp: "You can gain some benefit from using multiple processors in Inventor. However, a faster, single processor can be more desirable. By design, Inventor is not a multi threaded application. The processing load cannot ordinarily be balanced over multiple processors. However, some specific functionality in Inventor does support multi-core technology.

The wisest choice is to procure the fastest single CPU that your budget allows. If your budget allows, buy the two fastest dual CPUs."

 

...so... that's REALLY super important.... I didn't know that... and in this day and age, that's gotta happen.  There are Android apps that make use of multi-core processors.  Just sayin'.  But then I see this in the "General" section:

 

"Dual Six core processor (12 cores total, hyperthreading not recommended because Inventor does not take advantage (except Studio rendering))."

 

...so why recommend a six-core processor?  This reads like unless you're using Studio, those 5 cores may be twiddling their thumbs?

 

Wow, yeah, look at this:

 

Number of unique parts    Recommended RAM in GB

> 5000                                        6

> 10,000                                     12

> 15,000                                     18

> 20,000                                     24

 

Your 75k unique parts with 150k-200k occurances is WAY off these charts... and frankly, "Recommended" doesn't always get you where you want to be.  So... like 100G of RAM I guess. 😉  I don't know that Windows can even address that much RAM... that is of course crazy talk; do not get 100G of RAM... but based on this chart, and a little extrapolation, that's what you'd "need".

 

They're recommending a 2G vid card for "large assemblies"... and it sounds like you're past Autodesks definition of "large assembly", so again, yeah, the 1G Quadro 2000 is flat out not enough.

 

Frankly, I recommend you look at changing the work flow.  Do you REALLY... NEED 200k part assemblies?  If so, you're going to need a Lamborghini w/ a 200-cylinder engine... try NASA.  Maybe IBM will let you borrow Sequoia.  Even the tech of 2012 has limitations.

Message 8 of 48
Rich.O.3d
in reply to: TheRham

lol..the IT twits where I work got us super cad machines as recomended by HP (our IT provider)

They are z800 workstations

the 16 cores in the cpu would render realy well with a program that uses them

When Inventor is bogged (most of the day) you can check the processes and system performance...my cpu usage never goes above 5%

 

my machine I built at home 3years ago for under $3500 (quad core cpu q6600) maxes out at 26% cpu but still processes the same model (derive a big assembly into a single part and time it or convert a big step file) in 1/10th the time (at work 3 to 4 hours at home 20 to 30 mins)

 

oh and the xeon just means its a cpu that has been tested for voltage/heat/speed.

for every xeon chip, there is a normal chip that is identical but hasnt been 'tested' for stability at varying volatages/temps and only costs a fraction of the price...i leave the xeon chips for the server boys and IT crowd with other peoples money to spend

CAD Management 101:
You can do it your own way,
If its done just how I say!
[Metallica:And Justice For All:1988]
Message 9 of 48
warrenandy
in reply to: warrenandy

Guys here is what the Dell Engineers recommended... They cannot add the 512 at the factory so it is a separate line item (I will install it after it arrives). The Processor is rated at 3.1 but they said I can use the turbo and boost it to ~4.5 or so. We will see, but according to the Engineers the RAM and Motherboard on this thing should also be faster than a regular desktop. Price is in the neighborhood of $12k for this configuration.

 

I looked and found Boxx has a machine that you can do the i7 and have the larger video cards. The problem with most boxes to get the power you need for the cards you have to have a Motherboard that only will accept Xeon processors. I don't thin it is a matter of it not being passable as much as most people who want all that video never want a standard single processor.

 

 

Base Unit:                             Dell Precision,T7600,MT,1300W (225-2096)

Processor:                            Dual Eight Core XEON E5-2687W, 3.1GHz, 20M, 8.0 GT/s, Turbo+,Dell Precision T7600 (317-8355)

Memory:                                64GB DDR3 RDIMM 1600, ECC,8x8GB,Dell Precision Tx600 (317-8326)

Video Card:                           2GB nVIDIA Quadro 4000,Dual Monitor,2DP and 1DVI,Dell Precision Tx600 (320-3292)

Hard Drive:                            256GB,SSD,2.5" (342-3440)

Hard Drive Controller:           C2 SATA/SSD 2.5 Inch,1-4 Hard Drives,Dell Precision T7600 (342-4014)

Operating System:                Windows 7 Professional,No Media, 64-bit,Fixed Precision, English (421-5607)

TBU:                                      PERC H310 SATA/SAS Controller for Dell Precision, T7600 (342-5065)

CD-ROM or DVD-ROM Drive:  8X DVD+/-RW,Data Only,Dell Precision T3600,T5600 and T7600 (318-1326)

Additional Storage Products:               2.5 Inch 7200 SATA 320GB,Second Drive,Dell Precision Tx600 (342-4461)

Controller Option:                 RAID,CNTRL,INTEL,PAYG,D,T7600 (331-4133)

Software Disk Two:               No Out-of-Band Systems MGMT,PWS T7600 (331-4131)

Feature                                  NO RAID,Dell Precison Tx600 (331-4816)

Misc:                                     NVIDIA Tesla C2075 Computing Processor,Dell Precision Tx600 (320-3685)

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
Message 10 of 48
TheRham
in reply to: warrenandy

I must warn you....

 

there, you've been warned.

Message 11 of 48
mcgyvr
in reply to: TheRham

CLEARY Dell cannot build you the best machine..

You will NOT be happy with that. guaranteed.

 

dual 8 core xeon ha ha ha.. Like others have said you will just see 1 core working and thats IT.. The rest will sit idle and are just a waste.. Now in the idw/studio environment it will help a lot but that machine will NOT be any faster than a 2K computer in the assembly environment.

 

Until you can make a case to your boss that you need to get out of the Dell box you are screwed.

 

If you want, I'd be happy to (this weekend maybe) spec out a machine from another company that will out perform the Dell machine for not even half the price.

 

Do you work locally or from a server? thats a very important question...

All the hard drives/SSD/RAID in the world won't help if you are working from a server.

 

 



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventor 2023 - Dell Precision 5570

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Message 12 of 48
warrenandy
in reply to: warrenandy

The idw is the main area we need it for, and it is not the boss, it is the policy of a multi billion dollar corporation. Changing that would be like getting a aircraft carrier to turn on the same radius as a jet ski. Sometimes you learn to work with what you are given and make the best of it. I learned a long time ago to pick my battles carefully and who I buy this computer for is not one of them. The better fix it getting the designers to use shrinkwrap and not make such huge overhead to deal with. This computer is just to make the point in the hardware is not the issue, it is the workflow procedures.

 

Remember, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools...

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
Message 13 of 48
TheRham
in reply to: mcgyvr

There is another saying: The right tool for the right job.

 

If you NEED to buy from Dell, so be it... but do not buy THAT Dell.  That is not even the best Dell for the job... through no fault of their own; they aren't Inventor experts.

 

What did this multi-billion dollar company do before Inventor existed?  Inventor is not intended for what you're doing.  Their recommended specs cover assemblies as large as 20k parts.  You have 75k parts.  If your primary need here is for the drawing, what about exporting the individual sub-assemblies to .dwg, and assembling them in AutoCAD?  I mean, if you can design this w/ 1/4 the number of parts than your designers, by all means... do that.

 

Really, for all I know, your designers may be inefficient.  Or maybe not.  I don't know a thing about your situation, but your options are:

 

1.  Fire your staff, get a new better staff that can create the same assembly with a fraction of the parts.  Good luck.

 

2.  Turn the battleship.  I sympathize.

 

3.  FIND ANOTHER WAY.  Work smarter, not harder.  Throwing away 13k$ is probably not the solution.

Message 14 of 48
mcgyvr
in reply to: warrenandy


@warrenandy wrote:

 

 

Remember, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools...



Doesn't apply.. Because in this situation the "tools" are doing all the grunt work here and causing bottlenecks.

And if its the workflows that are the issue you should be showing the proper workflow and showing them how much time it could save.. Not trying to change their minds by showing how expensive a computer is. Makes no sense.

 

I'm fully aware of large company IT procedures. Our IT guy came straight from Cisco. Standards like the one you are dealing with work great for 99% of the employees (basic office users).. But even large companies understand that they don't work for everyone and the proper procedure is to make the case to your boss who passes it up the line. Its done all the time for engineering systems.

 

Ive said enough.. Do what you want.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventor 2023 - Dell Precision 5570

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Message 15 of 48
warrenandy
in reply to: TheRham

Spoiler
 

1.  Fire your staff, get a new better staff that can create the same assembly with a fraction of the parts.  Good luck.

 

2.  Turn the battleship.  I sympathize.

 

3.  FIND ANOTHER WAY.  Work smarter, not harder.  Throwing away 13k$ is probably not the solution.



1. They hired me to help with this issue, however I do not have any kind of authority nor do I think the users are that far gone. The biggest thing like every other corp right now, they have 1 person doing the job of three to save money. It would cost (8) 1/2 $Bil jobs to be put on hold while all the replacements are training.  - NOT an option

 

2. What I was saying is this is what I am trying to do. Like I said I am picking my battles

 

3. 13k is not that big of a deal and I can share it to others who do renderings and use all the cores. That is the reason I went to the 8 instead of just getting the 4 core Xeons. I am going to set this machine up in  a corner somewhere and let different users remote into it when they need the extra cores to do their jobs. So it will not be put to waste no matter what. Delaying plants that cost Billions of dollars to fight over who should make a computer for us or buy one and test and see how it does while keeping the designs moving forward?

 

From the Bench marks I have seen the processors look pretty good, not not as good as the i7 with Inventor but as close as I can get and get the power I need for the Tesla and Quadro 4000. Take a look at this link...

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

 

As I said before I am trying to teach them to work smarter not harder but it is not going to happen overnight.

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
Message 16 of 48
TheRham
in reply to: warrenandy

Like I said, if you need to buy Dell, so be it... I'm saying don't buy THAT Dell.  Great that you can share it... it won't solve your problem though.  If you're just trying to make a point... why bring it to a forum?  Buy whatever POS Dell wants to give you for X five-digit price tag, watch it fail, and move on, I guess?

Message 17 of 48
warrenandy
in reply to: warrenandy

Don't take things too personally I am playing devils advocat here...

 

Thanks for all the help though!

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
Message 18 of 48
warrenandy
in reply to: TheRham

If you don't think I specked the correct machine, please give me specs that you think would work better. "Dell Sucks" is not a answers to the question of what I should buy...

 

Come on guys I need to know what processor you recomened (Modle Number type i.e. i7 4.2 or Xeon 3.5) what video card do you recomend, how much RAM and what speed and what kind of Hard drive. My other post I said spec out your "dream machine" if that means building your own tell em what you use what brand you recomend.

 

I have been proding just having fun, but seriusluy you guys have turned to the darkside. I am not saying I will not listen to you I am saying give me data not how you feel about a compaines product or why my users are not doing their job. I have a list of thinngs I have to fix.

 

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
Message 19 of 48
trevor.auman
in reply to: warrenandy

I imagine this is obvious, but have you done a shrinkwrap substitution on the larger assemblies. Also I do not imagine that you are assembling the entire model on a single layer, but that you have broken it down into logical components. You cane make each of the assemblies a shrinkwrap substitute. The shrinkwrap substitute is simplified in the main assembly and when it is selected in the browser panel or in the view it takes you to the parent file, instead of the shrinkwrap, changes are then updated in the shrinkwrap. This shoudl reduce the file size significantly, also it will reduce the number of parts on the top level so that the shrinkwrap assemblies only represent an individual part. This has worked for us on our larger assemblies most of the time.

 

Another thing to consider is removing any kind of special surface textures, particularly the transparent ones. The transparency doesn't show up on the drawing anyway unless it is in color, so I don't know why you would need it. Pretty pictures are great, but not really necessary if you are just trying to get a machine built.

 

Trevor Auman

Lead Mechanical Project Engineer

Energy Group, Salt Lake City

Ovivo USA, LLC

Trevor Auman
Lead Mechanical Project Engineer
Energy Group, Salt Lake City
Ovivo USA, LLC
Message 20 of 48
TheRham
in reply to: warrenandy

First off, I haven't been continuing down the road of "Dell sucks"... so... you must be talking to someone else.  When I say "Don't get that Dell", what I mean is "Get a different Dell... not that specific Dell you have picked out.  Perhaps I wasn't clear.

 

I'm not the authority on PC hardware... I'm a drafter.  You may want to try a PC hardware forum... but frankly, you don't need specifics.  You need to tell Dell that your app doesn't play w/ multi-core processors very well, so you need the most punch you can get from a single core (which is sad).  However, before you do that, I would verify w/ your Autodesk rep that this is in fact the case.

 

That said, the "dream machine" may not be enough.  Autodesk has RAM recommendations up to 20k part assemblies.  You have 75k.  That's almost 4x OVER their chart.  That's bad.  That means they aren't even thinking about 75k part assemblies, and the software may be ill equipped to handle it.

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