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Negative mass calculation in Inventor 2013

14 REPLIES 14
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Message 1 of 15
thomas.hauglien
2593 Views, 14 Replies

Negative mass calculation in Inventor 2013

Hi!

My company recently installed Inventor 2013. In previous versions we used a part with negative density similar to seawater to calculate submerged weight and CoG.

In IV 2013, it seems that the ability to calculate negative mass is not longer available.

 

This is how it worked in pre 2013 IV, when I could specify a negative density.

 

What I have is a spool made of steel. This spool is modelled as an iAssembly with four configurations:

-In air, empty

-In air, filled with glycol

-Submerged, empty

-Submerged, filled with Glycol

 

For this example, I now need three parts:

-Steel Pipe

-Glycol derived from the inside volume the pipe

-Seawater buoyancy derived from the outside volume of the pipe.

 

Each part has its own density, and the assembly weight and CoG correspond to the assembly configuration (with or without glycol) and environment (in air or submerged).

 

The seawater buoyancy represents the water displaced by the total spool assembly, regardless of the contents. To achieve correct weight in the submerged state, the buoyancy material has to have a negative density.

 

I do not want to make any of the mass parameters static, and I also fear that the CoG might not be updated correctly when using that method.

 

As I no longer can define a negative density, my question is if anyone can think of an optional method to achieve this without overriding the mass value.

 

Autodesk Product Design Suite 2013 SP1
Win 7 Enterprise 64bit
Intel Xeon CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
16Gb Ram
Nvidia Quadro 2000
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14 REPLIES 14
Message 2 of 15

When checking this from Inventor 2010 t0 2013, mass could be overridden in iProperties manually using negative value. But for the density, it could not be overridden in material within style manager manually or iProperties using negative value. So we are not clear how customer overrides the density in previous 2013 releases. Could you give us more details?

Thanks,
River Cai

Inventor Quality Assurance Team
Autodesk, Inc.
Email: River-Yijiang.Cai@autodesk.com
Message 3 of 15

Hi, River Cai.

 

 

Please see attached screenshot from IV2011 SP1 Material editor.

The density is defined as -1.026 g/cm³.

 

When a part with this material is assembled with other parts in IV2011, the total mass and CoG behaves in a way that is mathematically correct.

Autodesk Product Design Suite 2013 SP1
Win 7 Enterprise 64bit
Intel Xeon CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
16Gb Ram
Nvidia Quadro 2000
Message 4 of 15

When looking into the image, the value will turn red when setting negative value for density, and Save button is also disabled. That means this can't be done in R2011, right? Currently Inventor 2013 keeps the similar behavior with it when setting the negative value for density. In R2013, it will not turn red but reset the value close to 0 when using negative value.

Thanks,
River Cai

Inventor Quality Assurance Team
Autodesk, Inc.
Email: River-Yijiang.Cai@autodesk.com
Message 5 of 15

Yes, I agree.

I did not try to make a new material, so I didn't notice that the save button was greyed out. I only assumed it displayed negative values with red colour.

I believe the buoyancy materials were created in IV2009, and they have been in our library since then. I do not think the text was coloured red at that time.

 

Anyway, the materials have worked as we wanted until IV2013 (we have not used 2012, so I do not know how the behaviour would be there).

 

We now have several assemblies and drawings that are "corrupted" due to this change in density behaviour.

 

Maybe you could try the attached part in IV2011 and see if the models appears with negative weight on your side?

 

It seems that what we have assumed was an undocumented feature, in fact was a bug...

 

 

Thanks

 

Thomas Hauglien

Autodesk Product Design Suite 2013 SP1
Win 7 Enterprise 64bit
Intel Xeon CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
16Gb Ram
Nvidia Quadro 2000
Message 6 of 15

*It would be nice if we could have it as a feature again, though...

 

Autodesk Product Design Suite 2013 SP1
Win 7 Enterprise 64bit
Intel Xeon CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
16Gb Ram
Nvidia Quadro 2000
Message 7 of 15

Hi Thomas,

 

Allow the material to have negative density may give you convenience for your calculation, but this is not so reasonable from physical aspect. And currently even you could not have negative density you still can override the mass value to be negative, which might be a workaround for you in your calculation. The workaround can be like below:

 

1. Add a property in the document which you want its mass to be negative to indicate this:

 

Document.PropertySets.Item("{D5CDD505-2E9C-101B-9397-08002B2CF9AE}").Add(True, "NegativeMass")

2. When you need to do your calculation, you can check if a part has the property you set, if yes then set its mass value to be negative.

Dim oPartDoc As PartDocument
    Set oPartDoc = ThisApplication.ActiveDocument
    
    On Error Resume Next
    Dim oProp As Property
    Set oProp = oPartDoc.PropertySets.Item("{D5CDD505-2E9C-101B-9397-08002B2CF9AE}").Item("NegativeMass")
    If Err = 0 Then
        ' If the NegativeMass returns True
        If oProp.Value Then
    
            Dim oMassProperties As MassProperties
            Set oMassProperties = oPartDoc.ComponentDefinition.MassProperties
            
            Dim dMass As Double
            dMass = oMassProperties.Mass
            
            oMassProperties.Mass = -dMass
            Debug.Print oMassProperties.Mass
        End If
        
    End If

 

3. Then do your calculation with the overridden negative value.

 

4. After calculation, reset the mass value to be positive as normal.

oMassProperties.MassOverridden = False

 

Hope this works for you.



If this solves the problem please click ACCEPT SOLUTION so other people can find it easily.



Rocky Zhang
Inventor API PD
Manufacturing Solutions
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 8 of 15
petrxn
in reply to: thomas.hauglien

I agree with Thomas, this new behaviour is not very good. We need due to some reasons materials with density 0 and this is also not possible in version 2013. These small differencess (mostly undocumented) between Inventor versions are very annoyning and for example in this case we do not see any benefit. Only troubles Smiley Mad.

Message 9 of 15
YuhanZhang
in reply to: petrxn

We should still be able to set material density to 0. Can you double check it there? Any questions please let me know.



If this solves the problem please click ACCEPT SOLUTION so other people can find it easily.



Rocky Zhang
Inventor API PD
Manufacturing Solutions
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 10 of 15

Thanks, Rocky Zhang.

 

Although I am quite a novice in scripting, I finally managed to make an OK script with your input.

 

It seems that this is the way to do it for now, but I would really like the ability to define a negative density again.

 

Does anyone know if this is a necessary limitation within the software or just something the programmers forgot to include?

 

Can someone please verify the following summary of the gradual degradation of negative density usability?

 

- 2009: Materials with negative density can be created and used

- 2010-2012: Materials with negative density can be used if already existing.

- 2013: Density <0 is ignored

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Autodesk Product Design Suite 2013 SP1
Win 7 Enterprise 64bit
Intel Xeon CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
16Gb Ram
Nvidia Quadro 2000
Message 11 of 15
petrxn
in reply to: thomas.hauglien

Sorry, but it's not possible. Try to set density to zero in material editor, it will change to 0.001. See enclosed picture.

Message 12 of 15

Hi Thomas,

 

The change is because of the Protein(Autodesk Material Library) introduced into Inventor 2013, which can be shared with multiple Autodesk products, but if you now only use Inventor and want to take use of the legacy materials you can just uninstall the Protein, and then try to use the legacy materials which allows to set negative density.



If this solves the problem please click ACCEPT SOLUTION so other people can find it easily.



Rocky Zhang
Inventor API PD
Manufacturing Solutions
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 13 of 15
YuhanZhang
in reply to: petrxn

I double checked, you're right, the density has limits, if you input a value is out of lower/higher range, it will just use the lower/higher value instead, and the lower value is positive.  And so if you need to calculate mass with zero value I think you can try to override the mass.



If this solves the problem please click ACCEPT SOLUTION so other people can find it easily.



Rocky Zhang
Inventor API PD
Manufacturing Solutions
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 14 of 15
petrxn
in reply to: petrxn

Thanks, of course this is possible, but this is not real solution. I think that if we have material catalogue and there properties of materials we should use it. There is a lot of ways how to solve this new behaviour, problem is that Autodesk does not document these changes and nobody of designers can belive that model which was correct in summer is correct in winter (because zero is not zero). And this is what is the matter.

Message 15 of 15
Allen.Bai
in reply to: petrxn

Thanks for your reporting it. btw, do you think a large range is needed or we don't have any range?

Allen Bai
Senior User Experience Designer
Design, Lifecycle & Simulation

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