Losing *hours* of productivity due to serious Frame Generator bug (Inv. 2015)

[RobertWK]

So I'm having quite a serious, frustrating problem that is setting my project back probably about a day or two every time I have this bug.

The workflow pretty much goes like this:

1. I'm inserting a frame member into an assembly using the frame generator.

2. I place the frame member where and what rotation it needs to be in, and then trim the frame to the faces in order to make it the length it has to be.

3. I'm choosing "Reuse" in order to reduce the amount of files that ultimately are uploaded to vault.

4. I select two or three other lines which are supposed to have the identically sized and oriented frame member.

5. I do apply, and the frames are on the correct line, however they are rotated incorrectly and they are somehow offset from the position they're supposed to be in. 

6. At this point I do a "Change/Reuse" and rotate or mirror the frame, and because I figure it's running the wrong way, I do a 'flip member direction'.

7. Unfortunately at this point when do I an apply, I get either one of two results. The first is that everything works OK. The second is that now the frame is completely on the other side of the fence and it's also oriented incorrectly. Additionally, now some OTHER member that I have done a REUSE on is now also incorrect.

8. To fix it, I decide to do the same steps on the other frame member, which may or may not work correctly.

9. Unfortunately, it doesn't work so I delete the reuse, which causes yet ANOTHER member to reorient itself incorrectly.

This tends to go into a maddening cycle.  I took 11 screencaptures to show what is going on, but I would rather send them directly instead of posting them here (Don't want to spam the board).

If anyone, anyone can help or if there can be a hotfix for this I would be so incredibly appreciative.

[boylini]

Hi guys,

I'm also experiencing this extremely(!) annoying bug which causes reused frame members to flip out and forget their direction is reversed, whenever anything is updated.

I kinda got round it by making separate versions of the frame members for production purposes, but now they're getting more complicated and it's causing real problems. 

Is anything being done to solve the original problem here?

Thanks!

Tom

[johnsonshiue]

Hi! The alignment can be off after the skeletal part is updated. It is because the initial alignment was based on a reference that may not be persistent. There is indeed a way to make alignment persistent. You can edit each frame member using Frame Generator and then click Align button in the dialog. Make sure you select a persistent reference (origin plane or a workplane or a planar face). Many thanks!

[ajcraig99]

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@johnsonshiue wrote:
Hi! The alignment can be off after the skeletal part is updated. It is because the initial alignment was based on a reference that may not be persistent. There is indeed a way to make alignment persistent. You can edit each frame member using Frame Generator and then click Align button in the dialog. Make sure you select a persistent reference (origin plane or a workplane or a planar face). Many thanks!

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How about basing the alignment on something thats IS persistant, like oh I don't know. The origin maybe???

[boylini]

Hi Johnson, thanks for your reply. 

Unfortunately I can't get your suggestion to work for me. I suspect I'm doing something wrong here - I'm trying to align a reused frame member, and I'm not sure what I should be aligning it to. It doesn't seem to let me select much, such as origin planes/axes etc. When I do select something, like a face or edge of an adjacent frame member, this doesn't solve the original problem - the member still flips out of position when I change the update the skeleton. What do you mean by persistant? What sort of thing wouldn't be persistant?

Thanks!

Tom

[johnsonshiue]

Could you use Pack&Go to package the files and send it to me directly (johnson.shiue@autodesk.com)? I would like to take a look and see where the problem is. Many thanks!

[jtylerbc]

Johnson,

I don't think you understand the original problem being discussed.  This issue isn't about the frame member's rotational orientation (which Align would help fix).  It's about the member direction, which Align has nothing to do with.

[karthur1]

Johnson,

I have a support case against this issue.  See post 15 of this thread for the case number.  I supplied files with it if you can access them.

Kirk

[jtylerbc]

Johnson,

On re-reading this, I guess I was partially wrong.  The complaints here are about both rotation and direction of the members.  I submitted a support case for the direction portion of this issue about a year ago, including a sample data set (which I no longer seem to have).  See support case 10026810.  It was confirmed as being a problem by the Autodesk Support Team, and was supposedly logged to the development team.

My data set may not show all the issues everyone here is experiencing, but it shows the member direction flip issue I have experienced, which I think is what boylini is describing as well.

[johnsonshiue]

Hi! Kirk, I am sorry that I have missed your prior reply. I will follow up with Autodesk Product Support and find out what current status of the case. Many thanks!

[boylini]

Hi Johnson! Yep no problem I'm happy to Pack my frame for you, thanks a lot for the offer. I need to tidy it up slightly first though so give me a moment.

Re John Tyler, my problem is indeed with the direction flip issue. Everytime I update my skeleton (or anything else), Inventor totally forgets about all the directions that I reversed, which puts all my holes and keyways in the wrong place and breaks constraints. In my case, although I have to rotate some of the members, this seems to work as it should.

If I view the origin XY plane of the members in the frame, I can see which orientation it has been placed on insertion. It seems completely random as to which end of the frame the origin is. This seems to define the 'base direction' that each one wants to lie in naturally. Some of these need their directions reversed, and it is these ones which revert back to their original orientation when I update.

I suspect that the origin planes are initally located depending on where I happened to click on the lines of my skeleton, but there's no obvious feedback to tell you this at the time; and very frustrating that it can't be changed afterwards.

Thanks!

Tom

[jtylerbc]

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@boylini wrote:

Re John Tyler, my problem is indeed with the direction flip issue. Everytime I update my skeleton (or anything else), Inventor totally forgets about all the directions that I reversed, which puts all my holes and keyways in the wrong place and breaks constraints. In my case, although I have to rotate some of the members, this seems to work as it should.

. . .

I suspect that the origin planes are initally located depending on where I happened to click on the lines of my skeleton, but there's no obvious feedback to tell you this at the time; and very frustrating that it can't be changed afterwards.

Thanks!

Tom

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According to my testing, the reversal occurs even if you just do a "Rebuild All" without changing anything. 

Your suspicions about line direction are correct, and I'm currently using that as a workaround to get past this issue and get work done.  The behavior is dependant on which end of the source member and locating line for the reused member you click closer to.  By selecting in the proper combination, you can trick Inventor into initially placing the reused member in the desired direction.  If the member places in the initially correct direction, the reversals don't happen.  The bug seems to actually be in the process of reversing the member direction, rather than in the reuse operation itself.

As you mentioned, there isn't any feedback on the direction, so this either requires you to be very precise about your clicking locations, or resort to trial and error.  But knowing about this will hopefully make it easier for you to work around the problem for the time being.

[boylini]

Quick follow up - I've stumbled on a workaround for my problem:

If I delete the reused frame members that needed their direction reversed, when I insert them again I can get the origin plane at the 'right' end, so the orientation is correct. This is done by paying particular attention to which end of the line on the skeleton I click on when I re-add that member. It seems that the origin plane aligns to the opposite end of where on the line I click it.

I've had to go painstakingly through the whole assembly piece-by-piece but it does seem to have worked. Obviously it would be preferable if the reverse direction button worked as expected.

I'll still send you my frame to demonstrate the issue though Johnson.

Thanks!
Tom

Edit: Just seen your reply John, great minds think alike eh?

[jtylerbc]

Indeed, that's exactly the workaround I was trying to explain.  It is somewhat easier if you are doing it as you go (while initially building the model) than if you have to go back and fix it afterward like what you had to do.  Still a pain either way though.