Drafting Techniques

Reply
*Friedrich, Peter
Message 31 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-20-2003 05:42 AM in reply to: pipe0069
Not to mention.. I was Fast... and accurate... even by hand - so there
wasn't much to be gained... (grin)
My first few years were a big slow-down.... but you had no auto-dimensioning
(or even associated dimensions) then.
Distinguished Contributor
old-cadaver
Posts: 5,183
Registered: ‎12-12-2003
Message 32 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-20-2003 07:41 AM in reply to: pipe0069
In the 18 years I've used AutoCAD, I have found no hand drafter that can come even remotely close to the production of the average, trainded CAD designer.

But I will amend my earlier statement. "If your CAD drawings are not considerably faster than your hand drawings, you probably aren't using the tool properly"

Even without the automation available through CAD, the judicial use of copy, offset, stretch, change, blocks and a few others will leave hand drafting still looking for tape. With automation, a whole set of drawings can be done in the time it takes to measure off a hand drawings coords.
*Roth, Dave
Message 33 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-20-2003 09:16 AM in reply to: pipe0069
I had a group of projects that use to be done by hand (250-350 hours)
I worked wth the projects and was able to get them down to and avg. of 85
hrs. each...
Needless to say, it was a no brainer by our managment.

I was the first full-time CAD person at that office. They had a room where
all 8 machines were shared by 12-14 users.
I was able to convince them to put a CAD station on my desk. Wthin 12 months
every user had a station
on their desk and production increased considerably. We did find that the
sharing of information (tips and tricks)
didn't happen as much, so we implemented a bi-weekly CAD users meeting to
go through changes and updates.

I was lucky to NEVER to have had to produce any drawings by hand... lol
its been 14 years now...

Dave

"OLD-CADaver" wrote in message
news:f14fa9b.30@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> In the 18 years I've used AutoCAD, I have found no hand drafter that can
come even remotely close to the production of the average, trainded CAD
designer.
> But I will amend my earlier statement. "If your CAD drawings are not
considerably faster than your hand drawings, you probably aren't using the
tool properly"
>
> Even without the automation available through CAD, the judicial use of
copy, offset, stretch, change, blocks and a few others will leave hand
drafting still looking for tape. With automation, a whole set of drawings
can be done in the time it takes to measure off a hand drawings coords.
>
*Lincoln, Tracy W.
Message 34 of 102 (211 Views)

Re: CAD versus Hand drafting

03-20-2003 08:40 PM in reply to: pipe0069
1985, drawing electrical schematics (wiring diagrams), PLC ladder logic and
panel layouts... the first time I saw the BLOCK command I threw away my
plastic symbols template.

By 1990 with the add-on to AutoCAD that we had, I was drawing 8-10 sheets to
1 sheet with what we were previously doing with AutoCAD and a simple
menu/symbols and 16-20 sheets to what was previously was being done by
hand... what was even better was the accuracy was much better and things
like numbering devices (wires, components, etc.) was totally automated so
renumbering, sorting, finding was of little or no effort. To-From lists and
connections that went from one sheet to another was also automated
(previously done by hand would take days to check, was eliminated). And BOMs
and schedules were reports linked to a database vs manual lists or manual
spreadsheets... again increasing the accuracy of the design.

And then in the mid 90s all the manufacturers finally realized that
providing their hardware drawings (blocks) to the engineering/design
personnel helped get them spec'd into the designs... now you can go online,
download or request a CD-ROM of most manufacturers CAD Library (or something
like a Part Spec) and while still having to manipulate the information
(e.g.: relayer to your standards, etc..) you are saving valuable time not
drawing these from scratch.

Sure being able to draw by hand is an art. Does knowing and having those
valuable skills makes one a better Drafter, Designer, Architect, Engineer...
yes. Like being someone who has had to repair, assemble, construct (read:
having hands-on experience) also makes one a better designer... but
productivity, efficiency and accuracy as well as having reusable or
shareable information is where it is at and you still need to be able to
create readable, usable data.

*******************************************************
Please, DO NOT send technical requests to me via private e-mail
*******************************************************

Tracy W. Lincoln, Assistant Moderator
Autodesk Discussion Groups Forum Moderator Program
*Richardson, Randy
Message 35 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-20-2003 11:28 PM in reply to: pipe0069
You said, and I don't doubt it, that no hand drafter comes even remotely
close the to production of the average, trained CAD designer. In your
industry, following your standards, doing the type of work that you do
(whatever all those things are), that is true, I'm sure. In my industry of
origin, that was certainly not true until blocks, customizations, etc. were
put into place. Certainly not for new stuff that was dissimilar to anything
previously done. Out-of-the box CAD is better at making changes than
creating new work as far as time comparisons with hand methods go.

I'm sure I can find a roll of tape faster than I can boot up my computer
(assuming that I still worked on the board).

On the other hand, as a full-time AutoLISP/VBA programmer, I am certainly
100% sold on the benefits of using AutoCAD.

"OLD-CADaver" wrote in message
news:f14fa9b.30@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> In the 18 years I've used AutoCAD, I have found no hand drafter that can
come even remotely close to the production of the average, trainded CAD
designer.
> But I will amend my earlier statement. "If your CAD drawings are not
considerably faster than your hand drawings, you probably aren't using the
tool properly"
>
> Even without the automation available through CAD, the judicial use of
copy, offset, stretch, change, blocks and a few others will leave hand
drafting still looking for tape. With automation, a whole set of drawings
can be done in the time it takes to measure off a hand drawings coords.
>
>
Distinguished Contributor
old-cadaver
Posts: 5,183
Registered: ‎12-12-2003
Message 36 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-21-2003 12:01 AM in reply to: pipe0069
Okay, I need an example of something that can be done faster by hand than by out-of-the-box ACAD. In the last 18 years, doing several different kinds of designs in several different shops I have found no one that comes close to CAD by hand. You claim a different experience, so I need to understand how a line of keyed-in length is slower than dragging out a scale marking off the line length, then dragging a lead holder back and forth down a straight-edge.

I'm sorry but my experience has been that the only time hand is faster than CAD is with untrained or improperly trained users, or something is wrong with your machine.
*Richardson, Randy
Message 37 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-21-2003 12:39 AM in reply to: pipe0069
I suppose it's possible that I'm improperly trained. I took my CAD training
in Burlinton, IA, and I have no idea what the quality of the instruction
was, since I have not repeated the CAD training anywhere else. Keyed-in
length was not an option when I was trained in AutoCAD.

In structural steel detailing, exact lengths are in many cases irrelevant,
so it's really not that necessary to use the scale all that much. I always
preferred to use vellum with light bluish grids printed on the paper, so
that you could visually see where you were going, another reason that
marking things off with a scale was not necessary. Drawing a line consists
of one step, putting down the straitedge where you wanted it, and then
drawing the line. My instructor AutoCAD preferred selecting commands from
the menu, which I rejected immediately; the keyboard is much faster. Invoke
the "line" command, decide where you want to start the line, decide where
you want to end the line, adjust osnaps, see that snap and ortho was at the
setting you wanted, blah blah blah.

I really don't care about this subject enough to continue with this, so
farewell, and I'm happy for you.

-Randy Richardson

"OLD-CADaver" wrote in message
news:f14fa9b.34@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Okay, I need an example of something that can be done faster by hand than
by out-of-the-box ACAD. In the last 18 years, doing several different kinds
of designs in several different shops I have found no one that comes close
to CAD by hand. You claim a different experience, so I need to understand
how a line of keyed-in length is slower than dragging out a scale marking
off the line length, then dragging a lead holder back and forth down a
straight-edge.
> I'm sorry but my experience has been that the only time hand is faster
than CAD is with untrained or improperly trained users, or something is
wrong with your machine.
>
>
Distinguished Contributor
old-cadaver
Posts: 5,183
Registered: ‎12-12-2003
Message 38 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-21-2003 01:35 AM in reply to: pipe0069
Ahhh, make a blanket statement then bail. The same decisions about starting and ending the line are required in hand drafting as well

Keyed-in length has been available in ACAD since at least Ver 1.4 (@3'<45). I don't know about prior to that.

And Structural Steel Detailing is something I know about and have done quite a bit, both by hand and with ACAD. After the first beam or column is detailed the rest are a copy and stretch, amazingly faster than hand drafting. And making blocks of the most used beam and column types and end conditions further increases speed. Steel detailing is one area where CAD drafting should be 8-10 times faster than hand, more if there's an abundance of bracing (leave Smoley's on the shelf), if it's not, somethings broken.

If you want to believe in your artwork for art's sake, fine, but don't make unsupportable claims about speed of hand drafting over CAD.
*Richardson, Randy
Message 39 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-21-2003 01:43 AM in reply to: pipe0069
You're right about the keyed-in length. I was thinking of the relatively
new method of keying in length, to use the mouse to indicate direction, and
then type in the length. Sorry for the confusion.

I do feel free to express any opinion, based on my own experience, that I
wish to. I'll not accept your prohibition.

"OLD-CADaver" wrote in message
news:f14fa9b.36@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Ahhh, make a blanket statement then bail. The same decisions about
starting and ending the line are required in hand drafting as well
> Keyed-in length has been available in ACAD since at least Ver 1.4
(@3'<45). I don't know about prior to that.
>
> And Structural Steel Detailing is something I know about and have done
quite a bit, both by hand and with ACAD. After the first beam or column is
detailed the rest are a copy and stretch, amazingly faster than hand
drafting. And making blocks of the most used beam and column types and end
conditions further increases speed. Steel detailing is one area where CAD
drafting should be 8-10 times faster than hand, more if there's an abundance
of bracing (leave Smoley's on the shelf), if it's not, somethings broken.
>
> If you want to believe in your artwork for art's sake, fine, but don't
make unsupportable claims about speed of hand drafting over CAD.
>
>
*Davea
Message 40 of 102 (211 Views)

Re:

03-21-2003 01:55 AM in reply to: pipe0069
I'll throw this out to you for dissection:
Tell us which is faster for PCB layout...(i.e., circuit card layout,
component placement...) hand or CAD (without an auto-router).
You all have been neglecting other industries. Some of people do a LOT more
then hovering within specific disciplines.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!

"Randy Richardson" wrote in message
news:F16350F95348C45568C794ED1C8B03C7@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> You're right about the keyed-in length. I was thinking of the relatively
> new method of keying in length, to use the mouse to indicate direction,
and
> then type in the length. Sorry for the confusion.
>
> I do feel free to express any opinion, based on my own experience, that I
> wish to. I'll not accept your prohibition.
>
> "OLD-CADaver" wrote in message
> news:f14fa9b.36@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Ahhh, make a blanket statement then bail. The same decisions about
> starting and ending the line are required in hand drafting as well
> > Keyed-in length has been available in ACAD since at least Ver 1.4
> (@3'<45). I don't know about prior to that.
> >
> > And Structural Steel Detailing is something I know about and have done
> quite a bit, both by hand and with ACAD. After the first beam or column is
> detailed the rest are a copy and stretch, amazingly faster than hand
> drafting. And making blocks of the most used beam and column types and end
> conditions further increases speed. Steel detailing is one area where CAD
> drafting should be 8-10 times faster than hand, more if there's an
abundance
> of bracing (leave Smoley's on the shelf), if it's not, somethings broken.
> >
> > If you want to believe in your artwork for art's sake, fine, but don't
> make unsupportable claims about speed of hand drafting over CAD.
> >
> >
>
>


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