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Spec links to drawings

12 REPLIES 12
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Message 1 of 13
Anonymous
254 Views, 12 Replies

Spec links to drawings

I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
newsgroup.

Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?

Good/bad?

Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
closer ties between the drawings and the specs?

There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
first pass first draft spec for the project?

Tom

Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
12 REPLIES 12
Message 2 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Give the group an idea on where these specs reside and what format are they
(DWGs, web pages etc.).

--
Dean Saadallah
www.pendean.com
--


"Tom Momeyer" wrote in message
news:3c1761ae.1828048@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
> don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
> from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
> newsgroup.
>
> Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?
>
> Good/bad?
>
> Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
> closer ties between the drawings and the specs?
>
> There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
> architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
> scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
> first pass first draft spec for the project?
>
> Tom
>
> Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
>
Message 3 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Tom,

Inserting Hyper links into an pdf file takes a little work but go to
Goodbye .plt subject in this news group for writing pdf files. Inserting
a link is no big deal or even a group of links.

If the document set is put together with *.pdf for the drawings, I would
include the hyper links and the full spec and documentation on an issued
cd. This system could work well with the Con Doc system (I have not seen
any one use this in some time on large complex projects).

Adding a link to manufacturers can create an improper bid environment if
all manufacturers are not linked as well. Administrating the specs with
changing web sites and pages can make for confusion for the bidders. Hot
is on the left, Cold is on the right, pay-day is on Friday...

The cd would be a convince to the subs and the bidders but under no
circumstances would I give access to the office network, in-house FTP
site, or any internet site for bidding.

By bidding from cd's the architect looses control of the document
printing.

Keeping a record set of documents and cd's at the job site will increase
administration and I question the benefits.

My $.02

Larry


Tom Momeyer wrote:

> I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
> don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
> from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
> newsgroup.
>
> Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?
>
> Good/bad?
>
> Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
> closer ties between the drawings and the specs?
>
> There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
> architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
> scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
> first pass first draft spec for the project?
>
> Tom
>
> Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
Message 4 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Larry, (and Dean),

Generally looking for ideas related to automating the production of
specs from drawings. One process that has been used to date has been
to spread a set of plans out on a table together with a master spec
table of contents. Review the plans and then go through the spec
table of contents marking each section that is applicable to the
project and noting any new sections that you need to add. This is the
"manual method".

There is a company at http://www.e-specs.com/index.html that automates
the process; their advertisements say that they scan cad drawings and
then create the spec... so they must be picking up the notes on the
drawings. They are "automating" the process of creating the specs.

And over in the Adt3 newsgroup there was a message from Rob Starz
recommending the use of Adt's Property Set Definitions tagged to AEC
objects and to plain autocad blocks and utilizing Excel to get out to
the specs. This method is "linking" the spec to the drawings in a
fashion that automates spec production.

Larry, you brought up another more direct meaning for "linking
drawings to specs" when you describe the hyperlinks possible in
AutoCAD. I've seen the sample drawings where you can click in acad on
an elevator (or whatever) and it takes you to a mfr's web site... that
sounds neat, but where's the fee/money coming from to set it all up?
And, I'm not sure if I see any benefit or payback for developing
hyperlinks between specs and drawings... sure that sounds neat to
click from a material in the drawings to the spec section or vice
versa, but our fees ain't gonna get bigger to do that, right?

Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
Message 5 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Tom,

ADT has the capacity to use tags and relationship tables that will point
to spec sections. Linking the set definitions to a database can be done
but I can not justify the time and programing expense to pull the parts
together. A key word lookup from a set of documents will give you the
beginning index and the unedited sections.

The decision process is the problem - do you use standard gyp sheathing or
another product? At some point the specs have to be edited. I begin the
specs during the DD phase - cut sheets etc. Every thing grows from the
early decisions and the editing is completed during CD's.

If I use the Manuf web site or Sweets or Thomas Reg or industry group
standards or gov standards or etc I have to look it up. I make a link at
that time on the drawing to be a reference to myself, not for the
bidders. Web sites come and go and change too much during the course of a
project to be useful to bidders as raw information sources. Now if
manufacturers would standardize their specs and take out all the
proprietary verbiage that might help.

I have used a spec service in the past as an owner requirement. The specs
were voluminous without adding clarity. The spec writer allowed his bias
for products overcome budget considerations. In the end I had to write
the specs as any project architect should.

I would prefer to add links to details from symbol markers and make
coordination a simpler matter.

At this time the biggest impediment to changing specification writing and
presentation is the CSI. The idea that the drawings and specs are
separate and equal is a through back to ink on vellum.

Larry

Tom Momeyer wrote:

> Larry, (and Dean),
>
> Generally looking for ideas related to automating the production of
> specs from drawings. One process that has been used to date has been
> to spread a set of plans out on a table together with a master spec
> table of contents. Review the plans and then go through the spec
> table of contents marking each section that is applicable to the
> project and noting any new sections that you need to add. This is the
> "manual method".
>
> There is a company at http://www.e-specs.com/index.html that automates
> the process; their advertisements say that they scan cad drawings and
> then create the spec... so they must be picking up the notes on the
> drawings. They are "automating" the process of creating the specs.
>
> And over in the Adt3 newsgroup there was a message from Rob Starz
> recommending the use of Adt's Property Set Definitions tagged to AEC
> objects and to plain autocad blocks and utilizing Excel to get out to
> the specs. This method is "linking" the spec to the drawings in a
> fashion that automates spec production.
>
> Larry, you brought up another more direct meaning for "linking
> drawings to specs" when you describe the hyperlinks possible in
> AutoCAD. I've seen the sample drawings where you can click in acad on
> an elevator (or whatever) and it takes you to a mfr's web site... that
> sounds neat, but where's the fee/money coming from to set it all up?
> And, I'm not sure if I see any benefit or payback for developing
> hyperlinks between specs and drawings... sure that sounds neat to
> click from a material in the drawings to the spec section or vice
> versa, but our fees ain't gonna get bigger to do that, right?
>
> Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
Message 6 of 13
Steve_Stafford
in reply to: Anonymous

I post from the web at work so...I apologize about the formatting.....We've begun experimenting with a product called SPEClink by BSD (I think it's BDS). I'm not directly involved but it is a spec writing online service...they guarantee the relevance and accuracy of the specification sections and their application allows to choose which sections to include and if you choose something that is related to other sections it is add as well....Intelligent relation ships between sections and further intelligence between text within sections....That is to say, if you can't have A unless you have B then it won't be available to select.....This is a long winded way to say that if there was cooperation between Autodesk and Speclink, the act of choosing a wall with certain properties could "tell" speclink what to include.....If I read Jim Awes brain dump on ADT correctly he implies that ADT might be able to use the Notes portion of ADT objects to annotate these objects during CD's (in the drawing).

Anyone else using Speclink?

Steve
Message 7 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Keynotes, my friend. Keynotes. Check out the AIA's ConDoc system.

There are several keynoting database programs out there for AutoCAD. I
put together one in VB which allows you to insert keynotes into your
drawing from a database maintained by the project manager (or another
predefined party). The routines included a scanner which extracted the
keynotes from every drawing in the directory - which basically showed
you:

1) On which sheets the materials were called out
2) Where keynotes were altered (or NOT altered)
3) Generated a spec outline (list of materials used on the project)
4) Generated a keynote 'schedule' for every sheet (based on the argument
that contractors won't look to a seperate sheet for the schedule)

Not all the products provided this functionality - which is why I wrote
one in-house.

Check carefully the AIA's publications on ConDoc - it has a very valid
way of defining when to use a keynote, and when to use descriptive text.
It would be important to get the firm's buy-in when going in this
direction.

HTH

In article <3c1761ae.1828048@discussion.autodesk.com>,
tmomeyer@monad.net says...
> I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
> don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
> from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
> newsgroup.
>
> Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?
>
> Good/bad?
>
> Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
> closer ties between the drawings and the specs?
>
> There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
> architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
> scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
> first pass first draft spec for the project?
>
> Tom
>
> Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
>
>
Message 8 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Is that description available in an online document? I'd like to take a
look at it, but the boss refuses to spend his money on information about
systems we aren't already using.



"Michael Hogan" wrote in message
news:MPG.16841bc31d3ac26198968a@discussion.autodesk.com...
> Keynotes, my friend. Keynotes. Check out the AIA's ConDoc system.
>
> There are several keynoting database programs out there for AutoCAD. I
> put together one in VB which allows you to insert keynotes into your
> drawing from a database maintained by the project manager (or another
> predefined party). The routines included a scanner which extracted the
> keynotes from every drawing in the directory - which basically showed
> you:
>
> 1) On which sheets the materials were called out
> 2) Where keynotes were altered (or NOT altered)
> 3) Generated a spec outline (list of materials used on the project)
> 4) Generated a keynote 'schedule' for every sheet (based on the argument
> that contractors won't look to a seperate sheet for the schedule)
>
> Not all the products provided this functionality - which is why I wrote
> one in-house.
>
> Check carefully the AIA's publications on ConDoc - it has a very valid
> way of defining when to use a keynote, and when to use descriptive text.
> It would be important to get the firm's buy-in when going in this
> direction.
>
> HTH
>
> In article <3c1761ae.1828048@discussion.autodesk.com>,
> tmomeyer@monad.net says...
> > I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
> > don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
> > from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
> > newsgroup.
> >
> > Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?
> >
> > Good/bad?
> >
> > Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
> > closer ties between the drawings and the specs?
> >
> > There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
> > architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
> > scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
> > first pass first draft spec for the project?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
> >
> >
Message 9 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

He only spends money on stuff he knows how to do, huh?

As far as I know, you need to get the documentation through your AIA
bookstore. A quick google search didn't find the document - only
references to it.

The AIA used to sponsor seminars on the use of ConDoc, which were very
useful.

In article <7F857E7741E48040AFE9558464CA1274@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb>,
cprettyman@tobinparnes.com says...
> Is that description available in an online document? I'd like to take a
> look at it, but the boss refuses to spend his money on information about
> systems we aren't already using.
>
>
>
> "Michael Hogan" wrote in message
> news:MPG.16841bc31d3ac26198968a@discussion.autodesk.com...
> > Keynotes, my friend. Keynotes. Check out the AIA's ConDoc system.
> >
> > There are several keynoting database programs out there for AutoCAD. I
> > put together one in VB which allows you to insert keynotes into your
> > drawing from a database maintained by the project manager (or another
> > predefined party). The routines included a scanner which extracted the
> > keynotes from every drawing in the directory - which basically showed
> > you:
> >
> > 1) On which sheets the materials were called out
> > 2) Where keynotes were altered (or NOT altered)
> > 3) Generated a spec outline (list of materials used on the project)
> > 4) Generated a keynote 'schedule' for every sheet (based on the argument
> > that contractors won't look to a seperate sheet for the schedule)
> >
> > Not all the products provided this functionality - which is why I wrote
> > one in-house.
> >
> > Check carefully the AIA's publications on ConDoc - it has a very valid
> > way of defining when to use a keynote, and when to use descriptive text.
> > It would be important to get the firm's buy-in when going in this
> > direction.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > In article <3c1761ae.1828048@discussion.autodesk.com>,
> > tmomeyer@monad.net says...
> > > I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
> > > don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
> > > from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
> > > newsgroup.
> > >
> > > Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?
> > >
> > > Good/bad?
> > >
> > > Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
> > > closer ties between the drawings and the specs?
> > >
> > > There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
> > > architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
> > > scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
Message 10 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

As an architecture student in 1985 I used AutoCAD, batch
files, and MS-BASIC to create an application I called 'SpecSymb.'

The program would enable the CAD Operator to pick
a symbol type from a category menu and then insert the symbol
into the drawing. The symbol contained a field of characters
relative to the specification and the operator was able to
define the attributes if needed. When the symbol was clicked
while in the drawing editor it was supposed to load the specification
for review -- that would later be inserted into the drawing adjacent
to the title block as a series of notes.

While the ability to do this operation using software had not caught
up with my conceptual design the board of AIA reviewers I showed
the application to raved about the idea and not long afterwards
I learned that the AIA had a Lisp product they were marketing called
ConDoc KeyNotes...

--
<%= Clinton Gallagher, "Twice the Results -- Half the Cost"
Architectural & e-Business Consulting -- Software Development
City of Wauwatosa, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin 53226 USA
NET csgallagher@wi.rr.com
URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com/clintongallagher/






"Michael Hogan" wrote in message
news:MPG.16841bc31d3ac26198968a@discussion.autodesk.com...
> Keynotes, my friend. Keynotes. Check out the AIA's ConDoc system.
>
> There are several keynoting database programs out there for AutoCAD. I
> put together one in VB which allows you to insert keynotes into your
> drawing from a database maintained by the project manager (or another
> predefined party). The routines included a scanner which extracted the
> keynotes from every drawing in the directory - which basically showed
> you:
>
> 1) On which sheets the materials were called out
> 2) Where keynotes were altered (or NOT altered)
> 3) Generated a spec outline (list of materials used on the project)
> 4) Generated a keynote 'schedule' for every sheet (based on the argument
> that contractors won't look to a seperate sheet for the schedule)
>
> Not all the products provided this functionality - which is why I wrote
> one in-house.
>
> Check carefully the AIA's publications on ConDoc - it has a very valid
> way of defining when to use a keynote, and when to use descriptive text.
> It would be important to get the firm's buy-in when going in this
> direction.
>
> HTH
>
> In article <3c1761ae.1828048@discussion.autodesk.com>,
> tmomeyer@monad.net says...
> > I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
> > don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
> > from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
> > newsgroup.
> >
> > Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?
> >
> > Good/bad?
> >
> > Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
> > closer ties between the drawings and the specs?
> >
> > There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
> > architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
> > scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
> > first pass first draft spec for the project?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
> >
> >
Message 11 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Michael,

That sounds excellent. It's very much the sort of approach I've thought
would make sense. Some things I would add are to make the keynotes &
callouts integral to the database so that when you are labelling the
drawing, you go to the database for the wording of the callouts, expanded
keynote legend & greatly expanded text. The database would then keep track
of which other projects have used that item & which changes were made. This
central database can include all sorts of in-house notes as you learn more
about something including where to find photographs of our built jobs,
whether it turned out well or failed, manufacturers contact info and of
course cost estimation records. Pretty ambitious but it sounds super useful.

Michael Hogan wrote:

> Keynotes, my friend. Keynotes. Check out the AIA's ConDoc system.
>
> There are several keynoting database programs out there for AutoCAD. I
> put together one in VB which allows you to insert keynotes into your
> drawing from a database maintained by the project manager (or another
> predefined party). The routines included a scanner which extracted the
> keynotes from every drawing in the directory - which basically showed
> you:
>
> 1) On which sheets the materials were called out
> 2) Where keynotes were altered (or NOT altered)
> 3) Generated a spec outline (list of materials used on the project)
> 4) Generated a keynote 'schedule' for every sheet (based on the argument
> that contractors won't look to a seperate sheet for the schedule)
>
> Not all the products provided this functionality - which is why I wrote
> one in-house.
>
> Check carefully the AIA's publications on ConDoc - it has a very valid
> way of defining when to use a keynote, and when to use descriptive text.
> It would be important to get the firm's buy-in when going in this
> direction.
>
> HTH
>
> In article <3c1761ae.1828048@discussion.autodesk.com>,
> tmomeyer@monad.net says...
> > I posted a message in the Adt3 newsgroup and hope the newsgroup police
> > don't remove this one! I'm looking for a wider range of ideas
> > from the "cad manager community" folks that may not be in the adt3
> > newsgroup.
> >
> > Anyone have any ideas for linking specs and drawings?
> >
> > Good/bad?
> >
> > Are there ways to decrease time and effort involved if we develop
> > closer ties between the drawings and the specs?
> >
> > There was a message thread in the adt3 newsgroup discussing
> > architectural notes on plans. What if those notes were able to be
> > scanned or linked in database fashion to automatically generate a
> > first pass first draft spec for the project?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Tom Momeyer, AIA, CCS
> >
> >

--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net
san francisco native plants
Message 12 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Larry, What is a relationship table?

Larry Chism wrote:

> ADT has the capacity to use tags and relationship tables that will point to
> spec sections.
Message 13 of 13
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Paul,

ADT and other versions a Acad can and do use attributes with blocks and objects.

The tag sets the identifier assigned to an attribute.

A relationship table is part of a data base matrix. The data base follows the
table of extracted attributes and lists the documents, details (If the data base
has enough information of your standard details) and/or links to documents.

Send a direct e-mail if you have other questions

Larry Chism

lchism@utmem.edu

Paul Furman wrote:

> Larry, What is a relationship table?
>
> Larry Chism wrote:
>
> > ADT has the capacity to use tags and relationship tables that will point to
> > spec sections.

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