Portfolio Expectations?

[Anonymous]

This was originally brought up by Damo in the everlasting CAD Test thread,
but it got me curious. When we schedule an interview with someone of CAD
Tech to Designer level, I typically send them a canned note telling them who
they will be interviewing with, what they can expect will happen during the
interview and what they should be prepared to discuss. In that I also ask
that they bring any documentation (ie. drawings, reports, calcs, etc) they
have available. It's a real mixed bag of what we get - some bring nothing
(not even a copy of their resume!), some bring a random selection of
crumpled sheets, some bring full sets of project documentation. I have a
very limited expectation - I like to see a resume, list of references, and
maybe some form of documentation relevant to the position they are being
considered for for discussion purposes. Our interviewing principles
(engineers) tend to expect a full set of proejct docs and border on
dismissing the candidate if he/she doesn't bring anything - very frustrating
all around. My atititude is that not everyone is in a position to print out
and take home a bunch of documents - especially considering the "culture" of
the previous (or current) employer or how a previous job ended.

So, for those of you in hiring positions, what are your thoughts and
expectations? And from a "current employer" standpoint, how do you feel
about your staff taking your project docs to an interview with a potential
new employer?

For the record - if we lay off, we offer documents to employees. If someone
quits, we (typically) ask if they have what they need. If we fire, we
(typically) walk them out but will honor reasonable requests for
documentation after the fact.

[dgorsman]

Legally the drawings are the property of the client. Major projects require the signing of a non-disclosure agreement. Even if the employee has a "generic" practice project, employers still own it if it was done on the company computer/on company time. Bringing in an entire projects worth of documents, IMHO, is not a sign of good employee ethics.

[Anonymous]

I certainly do not disagree. But if a company expects candidates to bring
this kind of documentation, shouldn't they expect their documentation to be
on display when one of their employees moves on?

And legally, *a set of drawings* (paper and/or electronic) is the property
of the client. The finer points are slightly different between archs and
engineers in that an arch client may be entitled to "ownership" of a
design - meaning and arch cannot provide the same exact design to another
client. However, engineer's designs are not so proprietary - at least in the
commercial building arena. Which is not to say it isn't bending ethics to
take a set to a job interview.

Would it be different if all client/titleblock info were stripped from the
set? So any discussion that ensued during an interview was limited to
strictly systems and design concept?

And so can I put you down for "has no expectations of documentation" (ie no
project portfolio expected or required)?

wrote in message news:5594118@discussion.autodesk.com...
Legally the drawings are the property of the client. Major projects require
the signing of a non-disclosure agreement. Even if the employee has a
"generic" practice project, employers still own it if it was done on the
company computer/on company time. Bringing in an entire projects worth of
documents, IMHO, is not a sign of good employee ethics.

[Anonymous]

Over the years I have collected samples of types of work done for different companies I have been employed with (typically only from a direct hire position, as opposed to sub-contract positions). I NEVER take a full project & always take something that is a work in progress and was going to get pitched anyhow. Basically, just enough to get the point across regarding the types of project work I am accustomed to doing. Regarding electronic vs paper - always apaper, never electronic.

[Anonymous]

dgorsman <> wrote in news:5594118@discussion.autodesk.com:

> Bringing in an entire projects worth of documents, IMHO, is not a
> sign of good employee ethics.
>

My company supplies it's outgoing employees with whatever they want or
need when leaving. The last employee to get fired got 2 full sets of
construction drawings that he was an integral part of drawing to take
with him for future interviews. I believe he requested half size prints
for ease of storage. All of the title blocks have the project manager's
and main drafter's initials incorporated in them.

Personally, I would request permission to create dwf's of the two most
elaborate jobs I've worked on to show to a potential employer.

I see nothing wrong with bringing an entire set of drawings. In fact I
did this when I got my current job. It helps show the employer what
variety of skills you actually possess. And obviously my current firm
has no problem supplying complete sets to outgoing employees as well.

[dgorsman]

Interesting - I'm in the piping industry, and have worked on some of the largest projects in North America. The NDAs for those projects basically boil down to "tell, and expect jail time plus fines". Of course, there are usually a number of licenced and proprietary processes involved in said constructions, and leaked information from recent upgrades can be used as profit predictors in the stock market. Its all very convoluted and generally easier on everybody from client to designers to not say anything.

And yes, you can mark me down as "documentation not expected".

[Anonymous]

>Legally the drawings are the property of the client

In my field that's not generally true at all. It's interesting to me that (until your later post) nobody in this thread seems to hint what kind of work they're talking about. I think this is all highly industry-specific and trade-specific, and it would be useful to qualify the answers accordingly.

[Anonymous]

My portfolio includes some 3d mechanical design stuff, and a bunch of civil/environmental drawings. Nothing really secretive.

[Anonymous]

Keep doing it the way you are now. If someone comes to an interview unorganized and unprepared, what would you expect their work to be like if you hired them? Don't try to make a candidate something they are not.

[Anonymous]

Well, they are not LEAVING the set of drawings with you to steal - they are only briefly looking at them - so get over it, already. A good Cad Test is necessary if they are going to do production drafting - in my 10 years of Cad Management I have had people who talked a good interview - bit did not know how to use paperspace, who thought it was OK to round off dims, or use associative dims & hatch. Make the test relative and general, not specific to typers, customization, (cause alot of us don't WANT them customizing anything!) or experience level. How well they do on the test will tell you their experience level. If you are interested , I can send you a good one I compiled from several sources; I give them a 1/2 hour to take it. Believe me if you don't take the time when you interview - you will take the timing in trying to train them later. Another really important issue is - show them your system - especially if you customize! Get a feel for how they would take to working on your system - the last thing you need is a new employee who comes in and tells everyone what a bunch a crap your system is and how you should do it better. I encourage folks to submit better ideas on how to do something, but only after learning the company system first. My experience is that these 'troublemakers' are dissruptive and not worth the trouble. Hint: if they say ' why do you do that, you should do this' right away - not a good sign! Believe me, I have had employees who have caused nothing but agony, because 'they know how to do it better'.
regards

[Anonymous]

michelette -
Based on your post, it's apparent you don't see the value in a portfolio. The portfolio is not necessarilly to assess a person's cad skills, so much as it is a way to get a better understanding of things: what types of projects has this person worked on, to what extent were they involved with plan development, are they accustomed to using company standards, is their work neat & accurate, what are their presentation skills, etc ....

It was never suggested that a portfolio should replace a cad test. If anything, they should be used together.

As for the cad test - the best one I took was for a company in AZ many years ago. The test should take a good user 5 min, an average user 15 min & an entry level user 30 min. The company had interviewees sitting there for over an hour struggling with it. They don't have to be overly complicated, but there should be a mix of things tested on there.

Brenda Godfrey
KCI Technologies
Newark, DE

[Anonymous]

No, I DO believe in a portfolio - what I was saying was they are not leaving it when they interview, so I don't know what all the fuss was in the above postings about the employee doing something wrong in having a copy of CDs or individual sheets for an interview.
And most people do the test in 15 mins, but if you are hiring and entry level person it might take them the 30 mins. That is why I said you will know their experince level when they take the test. 5 mins is not a good test, don't you want to know up front if you are getting a good employee instead of taking their word for it? As a Cad Manager some of the positions I have interviewed for had me come back 2/3 times AND take multiple tests - although, I must admit Cad Tests are not my favorite, because those out of the box ones online are full of errors, or only let you do something one way, which may not be the way you do it. I have written up the mistakes in these tests and given them to the company when I find them - and they generaly abandon them. The one I came up with is a compiled written test - taken from the best of many tests and some I came up with.

[dgorsman]

That would be me. And I hope you aren't in my industry with such a lax attitude towards legal issues.

[Anonymous]

What can someone steal in looking at a drawing for 2 mins? And I have had a secret clearance and worked for the gov't.
I have never seen something marked SECRET. So I can't understand your legal issue.

[Anonymous]

I was under the impression that any work you do not explicitly protected by a non-disclosure agreement, was legal to keep one copy for portfolio purposes (as long as it's not copied and/or distributed).

How else would anyone ever be able to show anything they did to anyone?.

[Anonymous]

Architects seem to be concerned others will steal their ideas. At least
they are the ones that seem to get up in arms about it, I've never seen
a civil guy really care.

Lance W.

twaltz wrote:
> I was under the impression that any work you do not explicitly protected by a non-disclosure agreement, was legal to keep one copy for portfolio purposes (as long as it's not copied and/or distributed).
>
> How else would anyone ever be able to show anything they did to anyone?.

[Anonymous]

Architects are concerned about people outright stealing their designs - the entire thing, but Architects in general are not opposed to people using their work as precedence. Most every Architect uses precedence in their work, that's the name of the game. We take good ideas and use elements of them.

[dgorsman]

Exactly. I have signed around 8 (or is that 9...) NDA's that I've signed so far. Plus, the drawings have (almost) an entire paragraph about how the drawing, the contents, the design, etc. is the property of company X and cannot be copied without express consent, and how any extra copies should be eaten.

Perhaps I should reiterate that I'm not in architecture, but in piping...

[Anonymous]

Well, the bottom line is I think you are over-reacting. These are people coming to you to interview, so it is not breaking any Cad industry wide standard, as I think this posting has shown. MOST Cad folks have some copies of the work they have done unless it is Gov't SECRET or TOP SECRET. It is not the sign of a bad or dishonest person; they are not selling them to the company they are interviewing with, or giving them copies. If the interviewer can remember anything he sees on the drawings well enough to 'steal' something off them, they would need a hidden camera to take a shot of each page! They are not pouring over them for information, they are doing a 5 second look to see if the interviewee, is sloppy, and has good drafting technique. Please, lighten up!

[skintsubby]

<>

Nope, but if the drawings have a disclaimer on them, and they don't have permission, they're breaking the law and stealing the drawings. The person then sitting at your interview as a thief. What else could they have taken? Lips? Standards? VBA code? Spreadsheets etc? What could they take from your company when they leave you?

<< MOST Cad folks have some copies of the work they have done unless it is Gov't SECRET or TOP SECRET. >>

Not in my experience (Piping in the UK). I've never heard of anyone turning up at an interview with previous work.

<< they are doing a 5 second look to see if the interviewee, is sloppy, and has good drafting technique >>

So someone having a 5 second look at a paper print of a CAD drawing can tell if the person has good drafting technique? I doubt it.

Even if they were useless...If they were bright enough to steal a drawing from the place they were leaving (unless they asked permission, drawings being copyrighted etc) What's to stop them sticking there name on a couple of decent looking drawings and passing them off? Message was edited by: SkintSubby