Ownership of CAD files

[Evan Yares]

This came though the email list of the National BIM Standard group, and I found it thought provoking. It's from an architect who works for the general services division of a state government. (I've removed the reference to the particular state.)



As far as standard legal agreements addressing sharing of BIM and even CAD information, indemnifying the authors, etc., we... are attempting to take the long view and streamline the inevitable argument over whether the architect will give or sell to the contractor(s) CAD (or BIM) files for use in creating coordination drawings, shop drawings, etc. We’ve found great inconsistencies in the disclaimer forms our architectural firms are asking contractors to sign, as well as the amounts they are asking for to burn a CD, and believe it’s in everyone’s interest to write a standardized passage in our General Conditions that will eventually be tested and proven. Not to mention the potential for delays while these negotiations occur. And since the State has asserted ownership of the contract documents, and the architects are only asking for the contractor to indemnify them, the State is exposed to claims from errors in the documents/electronic files. Hopefully once all parties have legal protections, and a set of reasonable expectations, information sharing can become the norm rather than the exception. Of course we need to also address the fact that the contractor needs to share the information they’ve added with the owner/agency for use in managing the facility. Please understand that we are writing this in the language of today’s practice, but hope it will to begin to educate and train our folks for the coming paradigm shift. We are hoping to post the new documents for review by the end of the summer.

[Anonymous]

isn't that what happened to take5 ?


"James Maeding" wrote in message
news:5232074@discussion.autodesk.com...
Randy,
If Autodesk thought all of us had his concerns, they would just shut this NG
down, I'm sure.

[rculp]

"" If Autodesk thought all of us had his concerns, they would just shut this NG down, I'm sure. ""

That may be better than something else they might try. If they thought all users were as some posters here would have us think, they may attempt to "fix" these non-issues instead of those that really need attention. I can see resources spent producing a fixed set of 10 layers that can't be modified, or a fixed layer template with 10,000 layers no one will use, all having the cryptic AIA format.

[Anonymous]

Ok, now I'm scared 🙂

wrote in message news:5232262@discussion.autodesk.com...
"" If Autodesk thought all of us had his concerns, they would just shut this
NG down, I'm sure. ""

That may be better than something else they might try. If they thought all
users were as some posters here would have us think, they may attempt to
"fix" these non-issues instead of those that really need attention. I can
see resources spent producing a fixed set of 10 layers that can't be
modified, or a fixed layer template with 10,000 layers no one will use, all
having the cryptic AIA format.

[jorgeledezma]

Allen,

Dwg is a living thing that soon or later can be edited. You can quality check it one time, but who can be sure that it will kept in that condition? It is like jelly or ice: special conditions are required to allow the no-change status. Document Management? No. It is almost funny to use another application to avoid the self weakness.

By the other hand, paper or dwf or pdf are dead ends, a report of the design. this format cant be edited, at least by mistake.

dwg or paper?

[Evan Yares]

Randy... Please give the product management and product development people at Autodesk a little credit, and a little respect. Their job is incredibly difficult, and they do it with care and dedication.

If you want to be the arbiter of what Autodesk does and doesn't do with their products, you should consider applying there for a job. My understanding is that it's a great company to work for, and they always need people who have experience and passion.

[rculp]

"" but who can be sure that it will kept in that condition ""

The same is true of any media, including paper. We've all seen the failure to maintain as-built conditions or follow up changes on the drawings. Data maintenance has nothing to do with the media in which the data resides. The weakness resides in the management of that data, not in its medium.

[Evan Yares]

> The weakness resides in the management of that data,
> not in its medium.

Loss can come through bad management, bad media, or unreadable formats.

Many irreplacable artifacts (including CAD files) were lost in Hurricane Katrina last year. In some cases, the losses could have been prevented by better management.

Recently, there were major floods in New Hampshire. Autodesk's operations there had major computer systems in the basements -- and they were damaged. Did they lose data? Probably. Carelessness on Autodesk's part.

Within the CAD industry, companies such as UGS and Intergraph have paid a lot of attention to the long-term readability of the data created by their applications. Have they been perfect? No. But at least they're trying. Possibly the best in the industry is MCS, the company founded by Dr. Pat Hanratty (the father of CAD.) His software will read files dating back to about 1972 or so.

Until I started raising hell a while back about the readability of old DWG files, Autodesk only supported back to version 2.5. They now support back to version 2.0. Yet, they still don't support the first four versions of DWG. If they'd publish the specs for versions 1.0 to 2.0 of DWG, the ODA would be glad to support them. But Autodesk neither provides any applications capable of reading those versions, nor publishes a spec for them. It's not a technical or competitive problem -- it's just a management decision on their part to make their customers' older DWG files worthless. (I don't know how many older DWG files there are. I don't think anyone really does.)

It may not be an issue for some companies. For example, your company may not care about long term archival life of DWG files.

Adobe, for one, has told me that, for some governments, the anticipated useful life of many files is "for the duration of the republic." (I'd say, the useful life of the design files for the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository would probably be better defined as "for the duration of humanity's existence.")

[rculp]

""
lost in Hurricane Katrina
...
computer systems in the basements
...
files dating back to
...
older DWG files
""

Are ALL management issues, not media or software.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository would probably be better defined as "for the duration of humanity's existence.""

Then that data should be managed such that it is available for that span.

[Evan Yares]

All issues ultimately devolve to "management". Yet, within that overarching rubric, there are technical factors.

While not dealing with the issue of native CAD files, Randall Newton and I wrote an article on disaster preparedness a couple of years ago. It's published in a few places, but here's one that's easy to get to:

http://www.techedgemag.com/content/ContentCT.asp?P=197

[rculp]

"" Randy... Please give the product management and product development people at Autodesk a little credit, and a little respect. ""

Oh I do. But I'm also aware, based on their past performance, that they will bow to perceived user pressure. A few squeaky wheels will gain attention and snowball into a wider-based rant than is justifiable, and Autodesk will response to quell the "perception". They've done it several times over the years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" If you want to be the arbiter of what Autodesk does and doesn't do with their products, you should consider applying there for a job. ""

Now this is interesting. Where was this grand advice when Jorge was posting his rants about what Autodesk needs to do with DWG? Where was this grand advice when Uncle FUD was posting his whine? Where was this grand advice for the ODA supporters that bang the open DWG drum? I guess this would be grand advice for anyone that thinks Autodesk ought to do something differently?

Can you say "hysterically hypocritical"? You know Evan, a personal attack is a personal attack.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" My understanding is that it's a great company to work for, and they always need people who have experience and passion.""

I'd love to work for Autodesk. Maybe when I retire and don't mind working for a lot less money, I'll apply.

[Anonymous]

I love how you label the opinions that differ from yours as "whine", "rant",
"drum beating", etc..
--
Regards,
Tim
http://tjriley.infogami.com/pyacaddotnet


wrote in message news:5234189@discussion.autodesk.com...
"" Randy... Please give the product management and product development
people at Autodesk a little credit, and a little respect. ""

Oh I do. But I'm also aware, based on their past performance, that they
will bow to perceived user pressure. A few squeaky wheels will gain
attention and snowball into a wider-based rant than is justifiable, and
Autodesk will response to quell the "perception". They've done it several
times over the years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" If you want to be the arbiter of what Autodesk does and doesn't do with
their products, you should consider applying there for a job. ""

Now this is interesting. Where was this grand advice when Jorge was posting
his rants about what Autodesk needs to do with DWG? Where was this grand
advice when Uncle FUD was posting his whine? Where was this grand advice
for the ODA supporters that bang the open DWG drum? I guess this would be
grand advice for anyone that thinks Autodesk ought to do something
differently?

Can you say "hysterically hypocritical"? You know Evan, a personal attack
is a personal attack.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" My understanding is that it's a great company to work for, and they
always need people who have experience and passion.""

I'd love to work for Autodesk. Maybe when I retire and don't mind working
for a lot less money, I'll apply.

[rculp]

"" I love how you label the opinions that differ from yours as "whine", "rant", "drum beating", etc.. ""

It's not the opinion, but rather the presentation. When the opinion addresses a point with some specificity, I'll address that specificity. It's its just a whine, well, then its just a whine.

[Evan Yares]

> They've done it several times over the years.

Think I could get the idea of them opening up DWG to snowball into enough of a rant that they'd do it just to quiet things down? No... I didn't think so.

>I guess this would be grand advice for anyone
>that thinks Autodesk ought to do something differently?

No -- I saved this "grand advice" for you. You may be an irritating , but you know your CAD. I figure it would be cheaper for Autodesk to send you to charm school than it would be to send some nice-guy idiot to CAD school. (Hey, it wasn't a personal attack... it was a backhanded compliment.) Message was edited by: Discussion Admin

[Anonymous]

No, I'm afraid not. You continue to belittle and berate people if their
opinion differs from yours. For example you and Evan don't see eye to eye on
the open drawing format issue, you use this opportunity to address his
efforts as self-serving. The fact that you can't seem to grasp is if the
drawing format were documented then there really wouldn't be a need for the
ODA's OpenDWG library at all. Any programmer, if they were capable, could
take the specification and create an open source library for reading/writing
DWG files in the language of their choice. This would essentially lower the
need for OpenDWG and ultimately lower ODA's funding. That sounds pretty
self-serving to me!
--
Regards,
Tim
http://tjriley.infogami.com/pyacaddotnet


wrote in message news:5234350@discussion.autodesk.com...
"" I love how you label the opinions that differ from yours as "whine",
"rant", "drum beating", etc.. ""

It's not the opinion, but rather the presentation. When the opinion
addresses a point with some specificity, I'll address that specificity.
It's its just a whine, well, then its just a whine.

[rculp]

"" you use this opportunity to address his efforts as self-serving. ""

psst... that's cuz' they are self-serving.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" Any programmer, if they were capable, ""

whoop, therein lies the rub.

[rculp]

"" Think I could get the idea of them opening up DWG to snowball into enough of a rant that they'd do it just to quiet things down? No... I didn't think so. ""

No, but they've dome several things just to appease the whiners. Re-instating the SOL??? commands in R13C4 was probably the most blatant, followed by the persistant Properties window and CUI and the move to dialog box everything and kill the command line.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" No -- I saved this "grand advice" for you. ""

But wouldn't it work just as well for the guy that wants Autodesk to become the standards monitor for everyone ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" You may be an irritating , but you know your CAD. ""

Yeah, well, I know what I know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Message was edited by: Discussion Admin

[Anonymous]

"psst... that's cuz' they are self-serving."

Please Randy, enlighten me on exactly how Evan's efforts are self-serving?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"whoop, therein lies the rub."

Do you honestly think that no programmer in the world could read a
specification for a filetype and develop software to interact with it? If
you do then it shows how out of touch with the software world you really
are.
--
Regards,
Tim
http://tjriley.infogami.com/pyacaddotnet


wrote in message news:5234699@discussion.autodesk.com...
"" you use this opportunity to address his efforts as self-serving. ""

psst... that's cuz' they are self-serving.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" Any programmer, if they were capable, ""

[rculp]

"" Do you honestly think that no programmer... ""

Very many won't. How many people are capable of making their own sandwich, yet Subway is doing bang up business.
How many programmers are capable of writing their own OS or browser? How many actually do? How many rely on somebody else to provide an open format OS or browser? (Linux? Firefox?)

The vast majority will rely on Evan and the ODA to provide those tools, and therein is the self-service. You and Evan both know that.

[Anonymous]

Tim Riley wrote:
> No, I'm afraid not. You continue to belittle and berate people if
> their opinion differs from yours.

Hammer hitting nail.

[rculp]

"" how out of touch with the software world you really
are. ""

Oh BTW, I AM waaayyy out of touch with the software world, and I like it that way. I don't want to be a programmer, I couldn't afford the cut in pay. If I need something programmed, I'll buy it or hire someone to write it, which ever is the most cost effective at the time. I like playing around with lisp, more as a hobby than anything else, but even there I'm basically a hack.