Just my 2 cents.
We've been LOOKING at Revit. After looking into it and how it works, I've been able to simulate the same modeling environment w/ AutoCAD Architecture/MEP. My multiview blocks/styles/ already have property definitions to extract information from.
The ONLY 2 things I've found it does better. 1. Being able to lock things to each other so if, for example, a wall moves the casework along that wall goes with. 2. Bidirectional Associativity. Moving an object and seeing it AUTOMATICALLY move in another view. Arch/MEP requires a Reload/Regenerate of views, schedules, etc...
Add to this the shortcomings it has on the Engineering side, it's not logical for us to switch. Especially at an additional $2k per license. Not saying upper management won't do it anyway, because it's the latest "buzzword" software.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about the Engineering side. There is a movement by the Architectural side to bully everyone into using Revit. But they fail to understand that the MEP side is in it's infancy and it isn't flexible enough to allow most Engineering consultants to work effectively with all of the different software requirements they might have.
It is pretty sickening to see how Autodesk is pushing Revit at the detriment of the MEP community.
1. Being able to lock things to each other so if, for example, a wall moves the casework along that wall goes with
Have you looked at anchors? AECANCHOR allows you to anchor one object to another.
2. Bidirectional Associativity. Moving an object and seeing it AUTOMATICALLY move in another view. Arch/MEP requires a Reload/Regenerate of views, schedules, etc...
You can set schedules to auto-update. True, sections & elevations need refreshing, but if you're using project navigator this is a one-click process. You can also use viewports and live sections if you want the bi-directional, instant updating.
I'm not going to wade into the 'I hate this software or that', just want to add my 2 cents about 3D documentation. If it suits your workflow, then moving from 2D to 3D is definately worth it. I've been documenting in 3D for the past 10 years and going back to 2D is like drafting with one hand tied behind my back. I still use 2D for details of course, but for everything down to 1:20 I take off the model.
The big question is which software package do we choose? If we choose a package that is not going to be supported in the future then we waste our time (unless retirement is looming). We could debate the merits of one program over another, but in the end it comes down to industry standards. (anyone using OS2 operating system anymore, or word perfect?)
While I'm not using Revit at the moment, (I find autocad architecture does everything I need) I will have to remain flexible if I want to stay employed. Having to learn new software programs is a pain, as I just want to have the building finished on time and on budget, but it seems to be a necessary evil these days.
From the MEP side of things . . .
Revit is just bad.
I can teach someone with no Autocad experience to be productive in 2 days. With Revit, it will take at least 2 years to get someone to that level. With businesses moving at the speed of light these days, that kind of time period is unacceptable.
From the engineering side of things, Revit cannot be controlled to the level of precision I have in Cad. There is no way to create construction lines so I can locate piping, ductwork, equipment exactly 2 feet and 5/8 inches from anything. If the goal of Revit is to create installation drawings from a 3D model, this lack of precision placement of anything within an architectural model makes for one thing: pretty pictures.
For correct MEP modeling, Revit must be able to mimic the actual construction processes and procedures used in the field, be simpler to use, and have a much less complicated user interface.
As for more or better training, I follow DeCamp's law: 90 percent of everything is crap. Revit MEP training right now is 100% crap because: 1) Autodesk admits Revit is not up to speed for engineers, 2) If Revit MEP is not up to speed for engineers, who, if anyone who doesn't want to keep their competitive advantage, can provide good, solid training, which employees can pass along to each other?
No one should be put in a position in which they will fail and fail and fail again. If you are an M&E firm, that is the position Autodesk Revit puts you into. That's why I hate Revit.
I'm getting ready to try and embrace Revit. I'm thinking it might be morelike a "Polar Plunge" than a nice day at the beaach now. :-)
Everyone, Might it be advantageous to start a different thread - something along the lines of "What is completely different/how to get "X" to happen/what paradigm shift will be required" to get an experienced AutoCAD user to understand Revit?
I love Revit!
I started on Revit MEP in 2008 and the learning curve was steep and painful.
Now I lead a team of 5 other RevitMEP users & I think it's the best thing that could have happened to me and our industry.
P.S. I havent read the other 8 pages of responses to this thread.
Cad-Duct accepts Revit MEP files too.
I've done shop drawings in RevitMEP and used them to have pipe spools manufactured on the other side of the world, without any additional software.
I'm sorry to hear it doesn't work as well for you.
Just something else to add to the reasons. WTF is it w/ not being able to plot to a scale? Surely it is possible.
Been attempting this for 2 days straight now.
Zoom - 100%, drawing is set for 1/16" = 1'-0", on a title block.
No ability to print from window.
"Fit to page" and "Center"...get the title block and drawing.....but it's not to scale.
I just want to express, too, my own disgust of working on Revit. To me, it is poorly designed, illogical, counter-intuitive, frustrating, badly organized, ugly, and so on. I just can't list here all the stuff that bothers me, there's way too many.
Some things cannot be forgiven as the program is paid thousands of dollars. I feel I work on a beta program when I use Revit.
A few examples and typical situations:
- Working full screen: the little filter icon at the bottom right of the screen shows only the 3 first columns of pixels of the number of elements selected (i.e., for 26 items selected, I only see the left part of the number "2". Baaad...)
- I select an item, enter the "move" command and click to set origin and destination: the "constraint" box is RANDOMLY checked! (I tried various combinations to find the "rule" that manages that strange feature, with no success so far)
- In plan view 1, I create a section view. In plan view 2, I place a REFERENCE of that section view (i.e., a simple 2D symbol with no linked view frame). Then, if I try to move that reference (the one in plan view 2) to make it fit better in the drawing, the program takes sooooo much time to make the adjustment! Now, besides a reference to its "mother view", what is behind that 2D symbol that asks Revit to refresh the whole **** project?
- The tools interface: what the hell is that? Why are management and analytical tools (used only by certain team members, on rare occasions) BEFORE the Modify tools (used by ALL, All the time)??? The icons are as big as if they were intended for visually impaired people, you have to travel through many levels to reach what you want (no, I won't remember shortcuts for commands I rarely use) and cannot reorganise in a satisfying way (using the rapid access bar is like taking something from behind a door to put it behind another door called "fast")
- In "General Plan View", I create a section view. When I put that section view on a sheet, the reference bubble says it was taken in the "Reversed Ceiling Plan". No way to "repair" the reference.
- I do modifications inside a view, lots of them! Then, for whatever reason, the modifications are refused by Revit, AFTER I spent 15 minutes doing it!
That's enough complaining for today. Feels good to let it out..... I could keep it going for many more pages, though.