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Message 1 of 133
sbsaint
16656 Views, 132 Replies

I hate Revit

Ive been required to learn Revit, Ive been at it for 6 months now, I started on a trial version of 2009 then my company purchased 2010 and they changed so much in the two releases that I had to learn where everything was all over again, many for the worst. I find myself using other programs to model components in order to avoid the labourious and impractical procedures in Revit.

Using Revit to draft and model is like driving a car using a boatload of of push buttons rather than a steering wheel.

Ive been using 3D programs since 1995, starting with FormZ and have been using AutoCad since 2000. I think that Revit is a terrible modeler and a mediocre drafting tool. I admit that it does alot, but I have to jump through the hoops and mindset of a team of programmers who think this is the practical approach of what creating architecture should be, If this is a program that screams design, then Id rather go back to a leadholder and a Mayline. The program is NOT intuitive, and instead of me VISUALLY creating a building component with numerical parameters, Revit seems to operate in the reverse manner. Im constantly battling the Revit Gustapo dialog box that says something to the effect that my model is an illegal operation. Ever try to do a 2 path sweep? FormZ had this nailed 15 years ago, and I could easily draw any profile and the computer would do the calculations for me. Revit seems to make you work harder and not the other way around.

The interface sucks, edit parameter controls buried deep within two to three dialogue boxes. The steering wheel is a joke. Why would you make a virtual controller to replace something that your mouse already does? Its like going back to the time before they invented the joystick, and Im using the keyboard to play pac-man.

My bottom line, Revit is a chore to use, It doesnt think for you, it makes you do all the thinking. Its not fun to use at all, and it takes the wind out of your sails when trying to come up with concept designs, and has me scrambling to find a pencil. Edited by: sbsaint on Mar 24, 2010 10:53 PM
Tags (1)
132 REPLIES 132
Message 41 of 133
Randy_Culp
in reply to: sbsaint

> {quote:title=sbsaint wrote:}{quote}
> I came here hoping someone would help me out with Revit,
No you didn't, read your first post. You didn't ask a single question about how to do something, you just kicked off a whine session. You didn't want help, you wanted to whine, and became disappointed when nobody shared your whine.

> {quote:title=sbsaint wrote:}{quote}
> I guess 5k doesnt buy you that much from this company.
I've gotten quite a lot for my money, and we've spent a LOT more than $5k with Autodesk.

> {quote:title=sbsaint wrote:}{quote}
> It doesnt think for you, it makes you do all the thinking.
Well there you are, right there.
Message 42 of 133
Alfredo_Medina
in reply to: sbsaint

Well said.

sbsaint wrote:
> It doesnt think for you, it makes you do all the thinking.
Well, if we were to buy something that could think for us, 5k would be a bargain!
That is absolutely an invalid argument against Revit.

Alfredo Medina _________________________________________________________________ ______
Licensed Architect (Florida) | Freelance Instructor | Autodesk Expert Elite (on Revit) | Profile on Linkedin
Message 43 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

Autodesk did not make Revit. They bought it from another company.

Paul

wrote in message
news:6364635@discussion.autodesk.com...
Re: "It seems like Autodesk didnt pay attention to any of that when they
made Revit."

Programmers from Pro-Engineer created Revit, not Autodesk, and that, along
with the totally different paradigm between Revit and AutoCAD perhaps
contributed to the interface issue. I agree that the UI is cumbersome in
Revit and has been somewhat unfriendly from the very beginning.

It is surprising that Revit has made use of right-click context-sensitive
pop-up menus so ubiquitous in AutoCAD. It would make the transition between
the two programs easier. Even with Revit version 3, I was always forgetting
to look up at the menu bar to see what my options were for the particular
command invoked. The use of the ribbon, in both AutoCAD and Revit
(something required by Autodesk's association with Microsoft ?) makes it
even harder to get used to.

Comparing Revit to other 3D modeling programs may not be a fair comparison
since Revit set out to not only model but to produce traditional 2d
documents from the model and provide information for downstream use. 3ds,
Rhino, Sketchup and FormZ don't do that and if they attempted to, it's
possible their interface would have to change due the added complexity.
While I haven't used software for product design and manufacturing such as
Solidworks and Inventor, how would you compare those modeling interfaces
with Revit?

In my small architecture world, working as I do for a company that creates
prototype buildings meant to be built over and over again with small
modifications, and that has a desire to track materials costs and maintain
the buildings, revit makes sense. The interface may be something we just
have to "get over" while we push for improvements.
Message 44 of 133
sbsaint
in reply to: sbsaint

We dont live in grass huts, this is such a stereotypical comment. Next you will be sayin that we wear grass skirts and dance around a fire. Would it be fair to say that you drive an SUV with only one person in the vehicle stuck in traffic with all the rest of the one passenger SUVs and that the extent of your travels is Las Vegas and Hawaii?
Message 45 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:36:33 -0700, sbsaint <> wrote:

>We dont live in grass huts, this is such a stereotypical comment.

Apologies all around, then.

>Next you will be sayin that we wear grass skirts and dance around a fire.

Well, if I lived there, I sure as heck would.

> Would it be fair to say that you drive an SUV with only one person in the vehicle stuck in traffic with all the rest of the one passenger SUVs and that the extent of your travels is Las Vegas and Hawaii?

Um, actually, yeah. Sorry.

Matt
matt@stachoni.com
Message 46 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

OK - that made my day. 🙂

"Matt Stachoni" wrote in message
news:6365962@discussion.autodesk.com...
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:36:33 -0700, sbsaint <> wrote:
>
>>We dont live in grass huts, this is such a stereotypical comment.
>
> Apologies all around, then.
>
>>Next you will be sayin that we wear grass skirts and dance around a fire.
>
> Well, if I lived there, I sure as heck would.
>
>> Would it be fair to say that you drive an SUV with only one person in the
>> vehicle stuck in traffic with all the rest of the one passenger SUVs and
>> that the extent of your travels is Las Vegas and Hawaii?
>
> Um, actually, yeah. Sorry.
>
> Matt
> matt@stachoni.com
Message 47 of 133
cparvez
in reply to: sbsaint

There are several other BIM softwares including AutoCAD Architecture and AutoCAD MEP. I would put Revit solidly in the DIM camp (Design Intent Modeling). If you make any model truely a BIM model first it would have to be an as built and since it very rarely happens that the model makes it all the way through construction and into as builts... I don't know why we talk about BIM as anything but a future goal.
Message 48 of 133
paul.ashley
in reply to: sbsaint

That's a good point. But I think the industry would have to come up with a more sell-able term than DIM.
Message 49 of 133
Matasovsky
in reply to: sbsaint

I bought books by Paul Aubin in the past. I was EXTREMELY please w/ his book on Mastering AutoCAD Architecture 2007. Very detailed in what the software could do and where things were. Bought his Mastering Revit Architecture 2009 and was EXTREMELY disappointed. Felt like it only covered general stuff and didn't get into the nuts and bolts of what the software could do.

is the Revit Architecture 2010 better?
Message 50 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

I have to disagree with you in that BIM is only a future goal. There are
currently organizations requiring that a model be provided to them at the
end of the project in an as-built form. As of July 2009, Wisconsin requires
that BIM be used on most state projects and that a final model be provided
to them. They allow a few different BIM software packages, but AutoCAD
Architecture and AutoCAD MEP are not in the allowable list.
http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/29/#more-29

Texas now requires that state projects use BIM technology and only allows
the Revit line of products. They also require a final model be provided to
them at the end of the project.
http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/state-of-texas-has-published-bim-standards-for-projects/

There are other organizations and universities requiring BIM files at the
end of the project, but I won't go into those. The point is that it is
becoming more common than many people realize and is here now.

Another thing to keep in mind with BIM is that there is an AIA contract
document named E202 which controls how BIM is used on a project. It
dictates the model standards, transfer of files, what the files can be used
for at different stages of the project, how much detail goes into the model
at different stages, and who is responsible for putting the detail into the
model. This document is very important and is showing up more and more on
BIM projects. If this contract document is used on a project, you can
pretty much guarantee that the BIM file will be turned over to the client in
the end.
http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/financial-ramifications-of-bim-projects-and-the-aia-e202-document/

With that said, there are still many clients that won't require it and will
likely never require BIM. There is also the argument that good software
resources may not be currently available to take advantage of the BIM file
or that the owner has the capability of doing anything with the file.

(The links above are to my blog articles where I have written about the
specific topics mentioned.)

Doug
www.dougbowersconsulting.com
blog: http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com



"cparvez" wrote in message news:6368585@discussion.autodesk.com...
There are several other BIM softwares including AutoCAD Architecture and
AutoCAD MEP. I would put Revit solidly in the DIM camp (Design Intent
Modeling). If you make any model truely a BIM model first it would have to
be an as built and since it very rarely happens that the model makes it all
the way through construction and into as builts... I don't know why we talk
about BIM as anything but a future goal.
Message 51 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

Heh... When I was at AU this year, if I'd had a nickel for every time I
heard someone say 'the owner won't/can't/isn't planning on/ do anything
with the model'... well, I'd probably be able to pay to attend next
year's AU. There are a lot of places where that's true, I'm sure, but,
it's a blanket statement, and I know a handful of FM's in the larger
facilities who also took exception to the comments (also, we didn't
understand why owners would ask for BIM/IPD if they weren't going to do
anything with it? ~shrug~)

Along with other places, I'm starting to require Revit deliverables on
my larger projects (although I'm dictating from the occupant/maint end,
the project management is handled by our corporate overlords). I
recently sat down with some local CAD/BIM Managers for an informal
post-AU chat, and there were some... concerns/critiques about owners and
models, etc. it basically boiled down to the management not being
specific enough to detail who handles what and when.

The theme reoccurred throughout the conversation, so, I asked if I, as
the owner, should get more involved throughout in the process instead of
just at the end, so I could definitively say.... who does what and when,
instead of having it be a constant question causing conflicts later.
~crickets~

:-D
So, it's going to take a few of these projects to really see the change
in process that we need to and for me to adjust my expectations and keep
them realistic, to give the support we need to to help different
companies work together, when they're used to interfacing only briefly.
Most of the companies who do work for us are long-term partners though,
so I know we'll be able to work the kinks out, as long as we keep the
lines of communication open.

I've been collecting links to similar documents for some time, they
can be found in the following post:
http://mistressofthedorkness.blogspot.com/2009/07/revit-standards-get...

plus some other links I haven't added to the post yet:
http://doa.wi.gov/dsf/masterspec_view_new.asp?catid=61&locid=4
http://www.tfc.state.tx.us/communities/facilities/prog/construct/form...
http://www.sdccdprops-n.com/BUILDING%20STANDARDS/Forms/AllItems.aspx
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/cic/BIMEx/download.aspx
http://aecuk.wordpress.com/
http://www.viewbyview.com/html/bim_guidelines.html
http://www.indiana.edu/~uao/iubim.html

Enjoyed your posts, thanks.

Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com

On 4/7/2010 10:38 AM, Doug Bowers wrote:
There is also the argument that good software
> resources may not be currently available to take advantage of the BIM file
> or that the owner has the capability of doing anything with the file.

>
>
>
> "cparvez" wrote in message news:6368585@discussion.autodesk.com...
> There are several other BIM softwares including AutoCAD Architecture and
> AutoCAD MEP. I would put Revit solidly in the DIM camp (Design Intent
> Modeling). If you make any model truely a BIM model first it would have to
> be an as built and since it very rarely happens that the model makes it all
> the way through construction and into as builts... I don't know why we talk
> about BIM as anything but a future goal.
Message 52 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

Melanie,

Good post from an end user perspective. I maintain that we will continue to
see more clients like yourself and more expectations from BIM as we move
along.

You have good comments in relation to getting everyone on the same team and
going the same direction. While there has been some of this done with CAD,
it will be even more important with BIM. Since the client is the one that
will use the model in the end, I see the client driving the model standards
more and more and that E202 document will likely be more driven by the
client than the architect. That will scare the architect and other members
of the design team as it really affects the productivity and requirements of
the design team if the BIM standards are not what they are accustomed to
providing. It does require that everyone get involved and on the same page
at the very beginning of a project and know exactly what is expected of
them. That is something that a 3rd party consultant can help with as they
can be an unbiased mediator between all of the team members.

Doug
www.dougbowersconsulting.com
blog: http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com



"Wanderer" wrote in message
news:6368661@discussion.autodesk.com...
Heh... When I was at AU this year, if I'd had a nickel for every time I
heard someone say 'the owner won't/can't/isn't planning on/ do anything
with the model'... well, I'd probably be able to pay to attend next
year's AU. There are a lot of places where that's true, I'm sure, but,
it's a blanket statement, and I know a handful of FM's in the larger
facilities who also took exception to the comments (also, we didn't
understand why owners would ask for BIM/IPD if they weren't going to do
anything with it? ~shrug~)

Along with other places, I'm starting to require Revit deliverables on
my larger projects (although I'm dictating from the occupant/maint end,
the project management is handled by our corporate overlords). I
recently sat down with some local CAD/BIM Managers for an informal
post-AU chat, and there were some... concerns/critiques about owners and
models, etc. it basically boiled down to the management not being
specific enough to detail who handles what and when.

The theme reoccurred throughout the conversation, so, I asked if I, as
the owner, should get more involved throughout in the process instead of
just at the end, so I could definitively say.... who does what and when,
instead of having it be a constant question causing conflicts later.
~crickets~

:-D
So, it's going to take a few of these projects to really see the change
in process that we need to and for me to adjust my expectations and keep
them realistic, to give the support we need to to help different
companies work together, when they're used to interfacing only briefly.
Most of the companies who do work for us are long-term partners though,
so I know we'll be able to work the kinks out, as long as we keep the
lines of communication open.

I've been collecting links to similar documents for some time, they
can be found in the following post:
http://mistressofthedorkness.blogspot.com/2009/07/revit-standards-get...

plus some other links I haven't added to the post yet:
http://doa.wi.gov/dsf/masterspec_view_new.asp?catid=61&locid=4
http://www.tfc.state.tx.us/communities/facilities/prog/construct/form...
http://www.sdccdprops-n.com/BUILDING%20STANDARDS/Forms/AllItems.aspx
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/cic/BIMEx/download.aspx
http://aecuk.wordpress.com/
http://www.viewbyview.com/html/bim_guidelines.html
http://www.indiana.edu/~uao/iubim.html

Enjoyed your posts, thanks.

Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com

On 4/7/2010 10:38 AM, Doug Bowers wrote:
There is also the argument that good software
> resources may not be currently available to take advantage of the BIM file
> or that the owner has the capability of doing anything with the file.

>
>
>
> "cparvez" wrote in message news:6368585@discussion.autodesk.com...
> There are several other BIM softwares including AutoCAD Architecture and
> AutoCAD MEP. I would put Revit solidly in the DIM camp (Design Intent
> Modeling). If you make any model truely a BIM model first it would have
> to
> be an as built and since it very rarely happens that the model makes it
> all
> the way through construction and into as builts... I don't know why we
> talk
> about BIM as anything but a future goal.
Message 53 of 133
paul.ashley
in reply to: sbsaint

Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an exception based on future financial considerations.
Message 54 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

You make some good points there.


I must note that, most of the providers I've talked to so far, don't
have any Revit standards in place yet.
It may be the case that the owner and consultants work together to
develop something that works for a fairly wide audience, OR something
like the NBIMS could be the solution... or it could end up turning out
exactly like the perpetual CAD standards discussion.

Who knows.

I'll admit that it's a hard thing to get my head around.
With my CAD Standards, I've got a simple 7 page document with a
checklist of basic quality control items to go through. Nothing I
require conflicts with the National CAD Standard, and most of the things
that consultants care about with regard to the appearance of their
printed construction documentation isn't important to me.

The BIM thing is quite a bit harder, because I'm not going to be
specifying 'hey, use your osnaps and make sure you label your pipes on
aia layer xx', I'm going to be saying 'hey, electrical contractor, you
need to model up to this point, then the Mechanical guy models the
rest'... it's a completely different world.


Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com



On 4/7/2010 11:41 AM, paul.ashley@us.mcd.com wrote:
> Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an exception based on future financial considerations.
Message 55 of 133
paul.ashley
in reply to: sbsaint

Melanie, I'm in both the owner and architect positions but we also farm out work. Are you doing FM work within a company or as a service to many companies? In whatever rold, are you specifying standards for existing buildings, new buildings, or both?
Message 56 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

I agree with your statements. Depending on the requirements, an architect
or other member of the design team may need to walk away from a project.
Reasonable expectations need to be part of the BIM standards and E202, on
the part of everyone. The owner must realize that the more expectations
that are placed on the design team and/or the construction team, the more
the project will cost. The ROI on that extra cost must be analyzed. Having
more information in the model requires more work, and someone has to incur
the cost (whether through paying more by the client or more time involved by
the designers). I am afraid that without good communication at the
beginning of a project, we will see some small design firms losing too much
money on a high demand BIM project and not be able to remain in business.

If a client does not have BIM standards in place, that is a good opportunity
for somebody (probably an Architect) to work with them on setting up some
standards.

Doug
www.dougbowersconsulting.com
blog: http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com


wrote in message
news:6368743@discussion.autodesk.com...
Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with
multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer
would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only
way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information
your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client
wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an
exception based on future financial considerations.
Message 57 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

I've heard that statement a few times... sure, some of the bean counters
be surprised by an increase in cost, but, bidding is bidding... we send
it out for bid, if we don't like what we get back, we adjust our
requirements or something to fit our budget...
Obviously, we're concerned about ROI, but, that's not new to BIM, it
goes hand in hand with every single project we send out.

As long as the contracts are clear, I really don't want anyone worrying
about my budget except me. (heh... 'as long as the contracts are clear'
that makes me giggle, I managed to say it with a straight face though...
obviously it's something we'll all need to stay on top of)

On 4/7/2010 12:02 PM, Doug Bowers wrote:
> I agree with your statements. Depending on the requirements, an architect
> or other member of the design team may need to walk away from a project.
> Reasonable expectations need to be part of the BIM standards and E202, on
> the part of everyone. The owner must realize that the more expectations
> that are placed on the design team and/or the construction team, the more
> the project will cost. The ROI on that extra cost must be analyzed. Having
> more information in the model requires more work, and someone has to incur
> the cost (whether through paying more by the client or more time involved by
> the designers). I am afraid that without good communication at the
> beginning of a project, we will see some small design firms losing too much
> money on a high demand BIM project and not be able to remain in business.
>
> If a client does not have BIM standards in place, that is a good opportunity
> for somebody (probably an Architect) to work with them on setting up some
> standards.
>
> Doug
> www.dougbowersconsulting.com
> blog: http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com
>
>
> wrote in message
> news:6368743@discussion.autodesk.com...
> Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with
> multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer
> would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only
> way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information
> your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client
> wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an
> exception based on future financial considerations.
Message 58 of 133
Anonymous
in reply to: sbsaint

Paul,

I work for a facility, in the Engineering staff of a 90 year old hospital.
The only all-BIM project going on at the moment on my campus is an
entirely new building. (although I'm trying to keep in touch with the
contractors that had been working on our first two "IPD" (chuckle)
projects for the entire Health System (aka, my corporate overlords),
they've been facing some challenges because our corporate staff don't
really have a BIM specialist on staff to oversee and spec and settle
disputes, etc).

We're going to be knocking down more buildings to replace in the
not-too-distant future as well. But, the work will eventually reach into
existing buildings (I'm working on that myself at this point, hopefully
I'll be able to farm out some of it, maybe indenture some interns, etc.
it's a long road ahead, but, I'm at least getting started, and that's
overdue, imho).

Have you done much BIM work in existing buildings? I'd be interested in
hearing about your experiences if you have. What could the occupant do
to make your job easier?

Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com

On 4/7/2010 12:01 PM, paul.ashley@us.mcd.com wrote:
> Melanie, I'm in both the owner and architect positions but we also farm out work. Are you doing FM work within a company or as a service to many companies? In whatever role, are you specifying standards for existing buildings, new buildings, or both?
Message 59 of 133
paul.ashley
in reply to: sbsaint

So as not to hijack the thread, I sent you an email.
Message 60 of 133
Matasovsky
in reply to: sbsaint

I'll be happy to learn Revit on my own if it means living on a South Pacific island.

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