Change Resistance quotes to Revit and BIM

[AlmightySR]

What are some things you have heard as reasons to not use Revit and BIM?
Even if its not what is said is not true.

I'm looking for things like:
"You cant use Existing ACAD work in Revit for Reno Jobs."
"The demands of the project deadlines are too intense to throw in a learning
curve"
"It requires making complex walls, doors, windows, and structure. Building
this information into a wall or door takes up too much time too soon"

[Anonymous]

Rick Moore wrote:
> Finally, that's fairly decent - how much is not part of the BIM?
See my reply to Bobby.

[Anonymous]

The elevations and wall sections look great, right on with the way we like
them. But the floor plan looks like crap. Wall types are the main problem
but that should be a easy fix.

"E L S" wrote in message
news:5120843@discussion.autodesk.com...
Rick Moore wrote:
> Stuff like this

Keep in mind that this is what our principles like to see. We have made
Revit fit our standards. Not once have we had to settle for anything
because "Revit can't do that."

[Anonymous]

Nah. Holographic displays, and we "draw" it all in a some VR device.

--
Joshua Tapp
-------------------------------------------
Another wacky message
from a wacky guy
-------------------------------------------
"PJ" wrote in message
news:5120738@discussion.autodesk.com...
and when we have roll-up 30x42 hi-res digital media we'll finally be able to
do it.

--
Princess Jamie,

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.
- Anais Nin

wrote in message news:5120733@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think the drive for change for 3D will come from the site as much as the
design office. To quote a construction manager in our
office this week;

"Design has to be 3D, it's how we build the buildings"

[Anonymous]

I'm not familar with that so bear with me. Is all of the linework drawn in
2D or is some of it a representation from the model?


> 100% Revit. Of course the sections use "Detail Components" (2D
> representations) and are not part of the "model." The model is used as an
> underlay to place the components.

[Anonymous]

E L S wrote:
> Keep in mind that this is what our principles like to see. We have
> made Revit fit our standards. Not once have we had to settle for
> anything because "Revit can't do that."

hey, thanks.

I just knew that this was getting blown out of proportion.

My only criticism is that the Plans/Elevations look just a bit 'flat'.

Is this subjective (your Principle likes it?) or is this unchangeable?
Like greater lineweight variation...

I guess the other question is: How long did it take you to get good results?
Lots of monkeying around?

I think a nice event for this year's AU would be:
"Top Gun SMACKDOWN: ADT vs. Revit"
The ADT discussion group offers up a 'guru', to face the Revit equivalent.
Each is given an identical drawing to replicate.
Fixed time limit.
Each contestant is judged by what comes out of the plotter,
when the buzzer sounds.

Ok, that might be a little unfair.
Revit contains more 'downstream data' that is potentially very useful to the
*entire* lifecycle of a Project beyond bidding/construction. (or so I've
read...) So, allowances need to be made for time upfront in creating the
drawings. 'Extra work now, will pay dividends later." Is that a fair
Revit-credo? (maybe I'm *way* off-base...)

[Anonymous]

"Why use BIM when the file format/program will change in 5 years when you
really need the file and it becomes worthless."
"Most contractors have a hard enough time building off paper sheets let
alone a BIM model"
"Most owners have a hard time making a PDF let alone work with BIM files"
"Why do the bidders job for them by placing everything in the model he
needs"
"Our job is to design and get it built not maintain the BIM files over the
life of the building"
"We can not stop a owner/contractor from making changes to the BIM model to
better their financial profit from the original design"
"Contractors will not take responsibility for the BIM model and make any
changes during construction"



"Joe Blizzard" wrote in message
news:5120973@discussion.autodesk.com...
wrote
> What are some things you have heard as reasons to not use Revit and BIM?

Looks like you're getting a lot of input on Revit, but nobody is addressing
BIM.

[AlmightySR]

lol yikes... we changed our standard SHX font for Revit...

We used a RomanS 80% width, Bold. Revit can do this with Text but cant
change that RomanS Setting with Dims. We made a custom RomanS TTF font with
these settings in it. Aftering doing that, we took a look at what we are
really trying to accomplish here... Good buisness, design and customer
service. It would be silly that every time we upgrade we need to load that
font. So we went with Arial Narrow. a default font that comes with
windows.

Some times you can get so caught up in such silly, stupid things that you
lose scope of your goal... to be better architects, not illustrators.

The client and building design matter the most, not a piece of custom text
on paper.

"Rick Moore" wrote in message
news:5120797@discussion.autodesk.com...
Funny. 16 years ago our head designer measured the angle of his hand
lettering with a protractor and that's how we started using an 18 degree
obliquing angle. The details DWF shows a project that uses plain Arial for
the font and I think it looks better

> you caught me. No seriously, the work is highly detailed and presents
> very well. I just have a 'thing' about 'hand lettered' fonts. It smacks
> of luddism.

[AlmightySR]

I remember hearing this in the Hand draft to Computer draft switch...
history repeats itself.

The dinosaurs make themselves extinct again.


"Rick Moore" wrote in message
news:5120824@discussion.autodesk.com...
Thanks, Matt. I'm intrigued by the concept of Revit but if it only produces
drawings that look like "Revit drawings" then it isn't ready. I do hope
someone will step up to the plate and show us some real work.



>THAT'S what I'm talking about! Excellent work!

>If Revit can produce CDs that look as good as this, then I would have no
>problems with using and recommending the program.

[Anonymous]

Rick Moore wrote:
> I'm not familar with that so bear with me. Is all of the linework drawn in
> 2D or is some of it a representation from the model?
>
>
>> 100% Revit. Of course the sections use "Detail Components" (2D
>> representations) and are not part of the "model." The model is used as an
>> underlay to place the components.

It is a mix of linework and model. Where we need more "detail" we use
detail components, kinda like blocks in ACAD.

[Anonymous]

BIM? Who needs BIM?
We do. Our office is moving to a Design AND Build model. We do traditional
Design/Bid jobs. We have a CM department. Now we're building more of our own
projects. We need to know what's in the buildings so when a sub comes back
and says this will cost "$", we can say "Bullsh*t, you don't have those
quantities and here's how we know...."

Revit has done a great job of cost control for us. In the design phase, we
have constant feedback of sq. ft. Real time. No update. No regen. Blow the
program - blow the budget.

Someone mentioned:
"I think a nice event for this year's AU would be:
"Top Gun SMACKDOWN: ADT vs. Revit"
The ADT discussion group offers up a 'guru', to face the Revit equivalent.
Each is given an identical drawing to replicate."...

I've offered that several times But not with just stupid drafting. How about
the whole damn design process. The old school architecture design exam would
be great. Here's a program - let's see what you can do in 12 hours. Plans,
sections, elevations, site details.... Of course it won't happen at AU,
because Adsk doesn't want to put their own programs in competition with each
other.


"Joe Blizzard" wrote in message
news:5120973@discussion.autodesk.com...
wrote
> What are some things you have heard as reasons to not use Revit and BIM?

Looks like you're getting a lot of input on Revit, but nobody is addressing
BIM.

[AlmightySR]

"Most contractors have a hard enough time building off paper sheets let
alone a BIM model"

You know whats interesting? Contractors are rebuilding architects CDs in
Revit(and other BIM programs) and showing the design flaws to the client. I
would hate to get that 'egg in the face'.



"Dustin" wrote in message
news:5121043@discussion.autodesk.com...
"Why use BIM when the file format/program will change in 5 years when you
really need the file and it becomes worthless."
"Most contractors have a hard enough time building off paper sheets let
alone a BIM model"
"Most owners have a hard time making a PDF let alone work with BIM files"
"Why do the bidders job for them by placing everything in the model he
needs"
"Our job is to design and get it built not maintain the BIM files over the
life of the building"
"We can not stop a owner/contractor from making changes to the BIM model to
better their financial profit from the original design"
"Contractors will not take responsibility for the BIM model and make any
changes during construction"



"Joe Blizzard" wrote in message
news:5120973@discussion.autodesk.com...
wrote
> What are some things you have heard as reasons to not use Revit and BIM?

Looks like you're getting a lot of input on Revit, but nobody is addressing
BIM.

[Anonymous]

Corey A. Layton wrote:
> E L S wrote:
>> Keep in mind that this is what our principles like to see. We have
>> made Revit fit our standards. Not once have we had to settle for
>> anything because "Revit can't do that."
>
> hey, thanks.
>
> I just knew that this was getting blown out of proportion.
>
> My only criticism is that the Plans/Elevations look just a bit 'flat'.
>
> Is this subjective (your Principle likes it?) or is this unchangeable?
> Like greater lineweight variation...

R9 is supposed to make some changes regarding this. We could of course
use the linework tool enhance the elevations.
>
> I guess the other question is: How long did it take you to get good results?
> Lots of monkeying around?

Not a whole lot of monkeying around. I don't have a hard number for you
like 2 weeks, 2 months, or 2 years. Let's just say some things did need
to be changed OOTB, but it was painless.
>
> I think a nice event for this year's AU would be:
> "Top Gun SMACKDOWN: ADT vs. Revit"
> The ADT discussion group offers up a 'guru', to face the Revit equivalent.
> Each is given an identical drawing to replicate.
> Fixed time limit.
> Each contestant is judged by what comes out of the plotter,
> when the buzzer sounds.
>
> Ok, that might be a little unfair.
> Revit contains more 'downstream data' that is potentially very useful to the
> *entire* lifecycle of a Project beyond bidding/construction. (or so I've
> read...) So, allowances need to be made for time upfront in creating the
> drawings. 'Extra work now, will pay dividends later." Is that a fair
> Revit-credo? (maybe I'm *way* off-base...)

[Anonymous]

"Aaron Rumple" wrote
> We need to know what's in the buildings so when a sub comes back
> and says this will cost "$", we can say "Bullsh*t, you don't have those
> quantities and here's how we know...."

Is that what BIM means to you?

[Anonymous]

or just feedit to the robots with bluetooth

and we can all join the soup kitchen line

--
Princess Jamie


"Joshua Tapp" wrote in message
news:5121026@discussion.autodesk.com...
Nah. Holographic displays, and we "draw" it all in a some VR device.

--
Joshua Tapp
-------------------------------------------
Another wacky message
from a wacky guy
-------------------------------------------
"PJ" wrote in message
news:5120738@discussion.autodesk.com...
and when we have roll-up 30x42 hi-res digital media we'll finally be able to
do it.

--
Princess Jamie,

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.
- Anais Nin

wrote in message news:5120733@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think the drive for change for 3D will come from the site as much as the
design office. To quote a construction manager in our
office this week;

"Design has to be 3D, it's how we build the buildings"

[Anonymous]

Sure is a nice part of it - but you missed my point. We're a firm that is
taking on more of the project responsibility from initial design all the way
through construction and even financing. We feel this is the future of
architecture. Doing more - not less. We need tools that assist us all the
way through the architectural process - not just design. Not just CD's. If
you just want CD's - outsource to India and China.

"Joe Blizzard" wrote in message
news:5121086@discussion.autodesk.com...
"Aaron Rumple" wrote
> We need to know what's in the buildings so when a sub comes back
> and says this will cost "$", we can say "Bullsh*t, you don't have those
> quantities and here's how we know...."

Is that what BIM means to you?

[Anonymous]

"Aaron Rumple" wrote
> We need tools that assist us all the way through the
> architectural process - not just design. Not just CD's.

It sounds like your building contractors are still getting a dis-information
model, though. Doesn't that put a certain discontinuity into the "all the
way through" process?

[Anonymous]

Attached sections are from Revit - done by a novice team working on their
2nd project (+ me as team leader.).

80% of the drawing is from the Revit model - last 20% is drafted detail.

[Anonymous]

We're the contractor. These are the subs. No. They are just padding costs
like they have always done. They know what the real numbers are...

"Joe Blizzard" wrote in message
news:5121111@discussion.autodesk.com...
"Aaron Rumple" wrote
> We need tools that assist us all the way through the
> architectural process - not just design. Not just CD's.

It sounds like your building contractors are still getting a dis-information
model, though. Doesn't that put a certain discontinuity into the "all the
way through" process?

[Anonymous]

Now I've got Johnny Cash singing "John Henry" in my head.

--
Joshua Tapp
-------------------------------------------
Another wacky message
from a wacky guy
-------------------------------------------
"Jamie Duncan" wrote in message
news:5121091@discussion.autodesk.com...
or just feedit to the robots with bluetooth

and we can all join the soup kitchen line

--
Princess Jamie


"Joshua Tapp" wrote in message
news:5121026@discussion.autodesk.com...
Nah. Holographic displays, and we "draw" it all in a some VR device.

--
Joshua Tapp
-------------------------------------------
Another wacky message
from a wacky guy
-------------------------------------------
"PJ" wrote in message
news:5120738@discussion.autodesk.com...
and when we have roll-up 30x42 hi-res digital media we'll finally be able to
do it.

--
Princess Jamie,

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.
- Anais Nin

wrote in message news:5120733@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think the drive for change for 3D will come from the site as much as the
design office. To quote a construction manager in our
office this week;

"Design has to be 3D, it's how we build the buildings"

[Anonymous]

"Aaron Rumple" wrote
> We're the contractor. These are the subs.
> No. They are just padding costs like they have always
> done. They know what the real numbers are...

Why don't you tell them what the real numbers are before they have a chance
to pad?