WHY CAN'T I DRAFT WITH AUTOSKETCH 9?

[shutterspeed6]

I understand polar and rectangular coordinates. I've done drafting and surveying for a living. I thought I could learn this application from the material supplied with the program, since it IS from the pre-eminent supplier of drafting programs in the world. I can't do it. I can tell by reading the description of the CD available from Ebay that it is more of the same thing that I find in Autosketch Help. I think what I need is an explanation of how to do some basic drafting operations. For example, I can't figure out how to re-occupy a point in order to go somewhere from it. In other words, I don't know how to put my pencil on the paper. And nowhere in Help can I see any ...help with that. What do you suggest? Hands on a House? Hands on a different program? Seriously, is this program similar enough to AutoCad that if I took an AutoCad course at a junior college I would then know how to use Autosketch? I just want to draw a simple house plan, to begin with.

Thanks,

Shutterspeed6

[Anonymous]

jesusmary, what won't they think of next. You can try using LineMultiple
and draw an entity crossing back and forth, I just did that since you're
one about this. It turns out that the ContentLibrarian will fill each
"object" (when the line crosses) with various colors for solid, hatch
when chosen. It's cute, and when you can use it, good luck.

I wouldn't bother with AutoCad, just stay with ASketch if you want to
use this program. AC is a billion dollars. I have a weird picture of
screwing around with the fill in AS9. You can look at it if you want,
enclosed. It was filled with the CL. You can fiddle with the fill like I
mentioned, see what they do. It's a start!

_h

shutterspeed6 wrote:
> I was curious to discover how Autocad treats fills, so I looked at the support material available for Autocad 2010. All of the support material is available for download on the Autodesk web site, whether you buy the software or not. The knowledge base, the entire help database, the manual, and the video tutorials are all available. In the help database, it's possible to look things up using terms that would readily come to mind. The descriptions are succinct, thorough and lucid, and contain hyperlinks to all related terms and commands. I had no trouble locating the following description of hatching:
>
> " You can hatch an enclosed area or hatch within a specified boundary using HATCH. By default, HATCH creates associative hatches that are updated when the boundary is changed.
> You create a hatch by selecting an object to hatch or by defining a boundary and then specifying an internal point. A hatch boundary can be any combination of objects, such as lines, arcs, circles, and polylines, that forms an enclosed area.
> Enclosed areas within the hatch area are referred to as islands. You can hatch them or leave them unhatched depending on the Islands setting in the Hatch and Gradient dialog box.
> If you are hatching a small area in a complex drawing, you can use boundary sets to speed the process.
> Objects can be hatched only if they are in a plane parallel to the XY plane of the current UCS.
> Note if you want to hatch an area that is not completely enclosed, you can set a gap tolerance ( HPGAPTOL system variable). Any gaps equal to or smaller than the value you specify in the gap tolerance are ignored, and the boundary is treated as closed.
> Invalid Hatch Boundaries
> When a hatch boundary cannot be determined, it might be because the specified internal point is not within a fully enclosed area. Red circles are displayed around unconnected endpoints of the boundary to identify gaps in the hatch boundary.
> Note if a boundary is outside a screen display, you must zoom out to ensure the point selected is within a fully enclosed area.
> The red circles remain displayed even after you exit the HATCH command. They are removed when you select another internal point for the hatch, or by using the REDRAW, REGEN, or REGENALL command.
>
> Commands
> BOUNDARY
> Creates a region or a polyline from an enclosed area.
> HATCH
> Fills an enclosed area or selected objects with a hatch pattern, solid fill, or gradient fill.
> HATCHEDIT
> Modifies an existing hatch or fill.
> System Variables
> HPBOUND
> Controls the object type created by the BHATCH and BOUNDARY commands.
> HPGAPTOL
> HPOBJWARNING
> HPSEPARATE
> Controls whether HATCH creates a single hatch object or separate hatch objects when operating on several closed boundaries.
> PICKSTYLE
> Controls the use of group selection and associative hatch selection.
> Utilities
> No entries
> Command Modifiers
> No entries
> Please send us your comment about this page"
>
> That's how Autocad does it. What we call an entity is called an object in Autocad. Doesn't it just make you feel like you're scratching in the dust? Not only can Autocad hatch/fill any enclosed portion of a drawing; it doesn't really have to be closed.
>
> Maybe we could all chip in and buy a copy with a multiple user license.
>
> Just a thought.

[shutterspeed6]

Okay Harvey,

I think I've gotten my fill of fills. There are two kinds in AS. The first is called a boundary fill. It has the ability to fill a space which is not the entirety of the interior of an entity. It's accessed from the Content Librarian or the fill/hatch button on the All-in-One toolbar. It's a drag and drop tool. It works by creating an invisible shape the same shape as the space being filled. The boundaries of the invisible shape align with the centers of the lines or curves forming the space to be filled. The fill extends to these invisible boundaries and hides half of the width of the lines forming the filled space. To regain full visibility of these lines after filling, each of the lines must be selected and CTRL-F applied to the selection, one line at a time. Boundary fills are found in the Help database index under "Boundary Fill, Creating". Right where the uninitiated would look!

The second kind of fill doesn't appear to have a name. It's done using the pattern drop-down menu on the Property toolbar. It can apply any of the fills or hatches contained in the Content Librarian. When enabled, the chosen pattern becomes an attribute of any closed geometric shape drawn until you tell it otherwise, or it can be used to fill any previously drawn entity selected. This fill method does not hide the outlines of the filled shapes. Its limitation is that it can fill only closed entities (those which are selectable as a whole). If an area to be filled is not bounded by a single entity, but each of its sides is itself an entity, press TrimJoin, hold CTRL and click on one of the vertices of the shape to be filled. If successful, the joined shape will flash momentarily as it becomes an entity. This fill method is listed in the Help database index in a subset called Setting the Pattern Properties of an Entity, under Properties, Pen and Pattern, right where I would look!. The joining technique is covered in the Help database index under Joining Entities; very poorly hidden, I must say.

It's possible in AS to add your own bitmap image and use it as a fill, change the line spacing and angle of existing fills and create custom fills. It's all in Help!

As you suggested I have redrawn my bed frame detail starting with the base line and stacking rectangles on it using an eclectic mix of snaps, locks, burps, pops and farts. Now I'm ready to move on to your next suggestion: Working Points.

So far, all I see about working points in Help is under Using Set Last Point. The example is to set a circle of a specified diameter a specified distance in from the midpoint of the edge of a rectangular plate. It's a bolt hole. I'm doing what the procedure describes, but I'm not seeing a working point. I can't make it show up by hovering with a snap on. Maybe it isn't there. Are working points visible? Can they be made visible? What can they do that a guide line can't do? What exactly is their reason for being?

What would be a typical command sequence, starting with a rectangle drawn with the rectangle tool, to draw the bolt hole in the example?

By the way, I think I figured out layers. At least I can make a new one, move an entity to it, turn it on and off.

I'm thirsty for knowledge, Harvey!

Shutterspeed6

[Anonymous]

> As you suggested I have redrawn my bed frame detail starting with the base line and stacking rectangles on it using an eclectic mix of snaps, locks, burps, pops and farts. Now I'm ready to move on to your next suggestion: Working Points.


If you want a simple minded explanation of working point, you can try
the enclosed. Do the little practice a few times to get the drift, it's
quite simple and enormously useful.

_h

[shutterspeed6]

Yes, Master

I see how it works! And I see that it works with other snaps also. So this can put the proverbial bolt hole in the plate. But only a bolt hole previously drawn outside the plate. I thought the idea was to set a working point, then draw the bolt hole around the working point. Then, it would be nice to set a bunch of other working points and copy the bolt hole to those points.

That's why I asked you if working points are or can be made visible, and exactly what their function is. In your exercise, I gather that the working point is a temporary "point of departure" for a vector to a location where something will be placed, and that it ceases to exist as soon as that departure occurs. Is that the end of story for working points?

One of the several things I want to do with AS is plot a survey of a property. I'll probably run a traverse (a series of points whose relative locations are surveyed), then occupy the traverse points with a survey instrument and obtain distances and angles to the features I want to map. Customarily, the zero degree mark of the instrument is oriented lining up with one of the other traverse points, so that in plotting, the angles will refer to that traverse line. In drafting, the protractor zero mark is lined up with the line on the drawing representing the traverse line sighted on (the backsight line), the angle and distance of each shot is plotted by hand and a dot is made for each shot. The drafter connects the dots to make the map.

I was thinking that working points might have a place in that process. Now I don't think so. I know I can lay out a series of marker points to represent the traverse. I've found that once I draw lines connecting the marker points I can no longer select the marker points, which means they cannot be removed later without removing the lines. That means the marker points have to go on a separate layer from the lines. Then, if I occupy one of the markers, backsight on another, as in the paragraph above, and lay out a bunch of surveyed points, it seems that I will have to rotate the entire grid around the occupied point in order to make the backsight zero degrees. Otherwise, I would have to apply an angular correction to all of the shots prior to plotting.

Are my conjectures about working points correct?
Is there a way to draw the bolt hole after the location is reached? Maybe this question is really: Is there a way to move a point around in AS without drawing anything?
What is the best approach to plotting a survey in AS?

As ever, many thanks.

[gadget2020]

A couple of things that might help you with lines, layers and fills:

- Every time you 'click' you put down a point: this can be an end point, a start point or a reference point.
- Every "line" has lots of 'properties' - a start [x,y] an end [x,y], an angle, a length, a layer, an order, a style, a colour and a width.
- Any of the line's properties can be changed at any point in time.
- Single lines end points can be moved without having to 'edit vertices'; just drag the green dots
- Holding 'ctrl' while moving an object toggles the 'copy/translate' option (eg, hold ctrl and drag the end point of a line will duplicate the line to have the same properties, just a different end point - radial spokes)

- Layers are like tracing paper, but you can set a colour and width for all the lines on that layer (Note above: every line has it's own colour and width; if it is not set to "by layer", then changing the layer's properties will not change that line's properties.)
- "Locked" layers will always go to the back, behind everything else.
- You cannot select any entities on a locked layer, but you can still snap to them
- You cannot select or snap to (or see anything) anything on a hidden layer. (Note - neither can the program - handy for colouring in with fills)
- You have to unlock a layer before making it your current layer
- You will always draw new things on the layer you are working on (it says it on the toolbar)
- Things drawn on a layer will stay on that layer when you move them or change any properties (other than 'layer' 😉
- You can move objects between layers by...
- - cutting and pasting; it will paste into the current layer
- - selecting the object, then changing the layer from the toolbar (or clicking on the current layer in the toolbar)
- - right-clicking on the object and going into the [entities...] option (you can put things onto 'hidden' layers like this without having to un-hide the layer)

- Fills are basically created by the program drawing round the area you click on and colouring in the inside of the shape.
- If you can't see the edge of the shape, then neither can the program; it will flood-fill the screen or give you an error. ([ctrl-z] is undo)
- Every point on this outline where lines touch it, there is an invisible 'node' that defines the shape.
- Double clicking on a fill will let you see and edit these nodes. (r-click or [esc] will exit this mode)
- They can be 'group selected' by drawing round a bunch of them or selected individually.
- You can move these nodes or delete them. they snap to lines, edges, etc. like anything else.
- These nodes are 'invisible': nothing snaps to them.
- The lines between nodes can be curved; click on a line and there is a "bulge" option in the toolbar - 1=half circle
- If you delete a line between nodes, you have 'broken' the shape and it can't be filled; you need to delete nodes one by one.
- If you fill the same area twice, you have two 'fill' objects on top of each other
- change a fill by r-click and [entities...] dialogue
- the order of fills can be changed, but only "to the back" or "to the front" of the current layer. (there is a toolbar button somewhere)
- I recommend creating a new "fills" layer for all the fills and locking it before printing; this puts all the fills behind all the lines (see above notes on layers)
- All the texture fills are in C:\Program Files\Autodesk\AutoSketch9\Properties as bitmaps(.bmp) : just add/edit your own and re-open Sketch to populate the list. (alphabetical order). (Pay attention to the 'hatch scale' and your drawing: I draw at 1:50 and have a hatch scale of 0.5)

Hope you find this of use

~G~

[gadget2020]

Just a brief note: to do your "working point practice" I do this:
- select the "book case" (marquee, top left to bottom right, enclosing)
- click on "translate"
- click on the lower left corner of the book case ('snap to end' is on - little red square)
- click on the lower left corner of the "room"
[book case moves to the corner]
- click on the corner again
- hit "R" on the keyboard
[dialogue pops up]
- type in the X field "1" (make sure Y says "0")
- hit [return]
[book case moves]
- click the [close] button

I could also
...'offset' the left wall by 1" or
...draw a horizontal line 1" in length and either move it to the book case/wall or
...draw a double line with a 1" separation or
...explode the room, select the 'floor' line, put an "=" infront of the length and "-1" behind it to change it's length
- these create a snap point so I can just use the 'translate' to snap from end point to end point (or move the 'about point' and drag it to avoid using the translate tool)
Depending on what I'm doing, depends on the method used. Three main things to learn : 1) There is more than one way to do everything. 2) Snapping is your friend, 3) lines are not permanent - use them to get snap points, then delete them or restore them.

[shutterspeed6]

Thanks, Gadget,

Do you have any thoughts about my questions above on how to plot surveys?

I've tried Line Angle. It does refer the direction of a new line to the direction of an existing line. After drawing each shot line a marker point can be set, on a separate layer. But it's cumbersome, because each shot line has to be deleted before the next is drawn.

I've also tried Polyline Segment. With end snap, I can occupy the end of a previously drawn line (a point on a plotted traverse), and plot multiple shot lines, then place marker points at their ends on a separate layer, then delete the shot lines, then connect the marker points to form a map, then delete the marker points. But this method refers the angles to the grid, not to the traverse line, so it requires that every surveyed angle be manually corrected before plotting.

This still seems cumbersome. Is there a better way?

Shutterspeed6

[gadget2020]

Need to test my understanding: it's been a while since I surveyed landscapes: You set a 'zero' point, then all reference points radiate from that one. These are then joined to form the contours etc.

My approach would be to have a layer called "Shots" that had a light grey, hairline, solid line style.
I would then use the [line single] tool and draw a line on that layer (anywhere, any length, any angle). This is the first 'shot': the start point is "zero" and it goes to the first shot point - in the properties bar at the top I would now type in the length and angle.
Now I would grab the end green node, hold [ctrl] and drag the line in the rough direction of the next 'shot'. Again, change the length and angle.
Continue until all the shots from that zero mark: should look like a star-burst.
Now I would find the next zero mark and do the same again - all the lines remain.
If I wanted simply marker points, I would create a new layer called "Markers" with perhaps a red colour. On this layer I would now go round all the end points of the shot lines and add [Marker points]. But only if all the extra lines were going to get confused with the main drawing. {And make sure that "Snap to grid" is turned off - it just leads to inaccuracy and lines not joining properly.}
Now I can hide the 'shots' layer and I'm left with just the points.
Now I create the master "Contours" layer and lock the "Markers" layer: I now can join the dots on the master layer to create the map. {And if I use a [fitted curve] rather than a [polyline], then it will look much cooler 😉 }

Another way to do it would be to do one survey marker's shots as [marker points] using absolute references:
create a new "Marker" layer, select the [marker points] tool and hit . Hit [return] (or click [enter]) to put one down at 0,0. Type in the coordinates of the first shot ...

[Fred9002]

For things like your "hole in a plate" example, us "drawing and deleting" methods which are less sophisticated, but very fast. Draw a line from the midpoint of the side to the future center of the circle, th elatter point defined by the requirement for the location of the (center of) the circle. Then draw the circle, then delete the line. Now that it's all electronical, (no eraser on paper needed) drawing and deleting are as easy as anything else.

I recently did a multi-layer drawing of a larger property. To me drawing was the easy part, and the most difficult part is reconciling the difference between all of the imperfect real world systems and the absolute accuracy of a CAD program. For example, it's accepted that the legal definition of a property conflicts with itself (the difference being a "closing error"),

[shutterspeed6]

Gadget,

Dragging the green line node is very cool. I had no idea that could be done. But it appears that the angle you designate in the properties bar is referred, not to the azimuth of the line we are dragging from, but to either north or east, according to the orientation set in Drawing Options. Is there a way to make this operation use the line we are dragging from as the zero angular reference, as a survey shot made from a traverse line would do? I tried rotating the grid to align with the line. AS disregards that and still regards north as toward the top of the sheet.

The attached drawing shows what I have been talking about. The outer lines are property lines. Assume that they have been plotted by distance and bearing from either a property survey or a recorded description. Since not all points I'd like to map are visible from any one place, I put stakes in the ground in enough places to guarantee visibility of all points to be surveyed, and I measure distances and angles between them. Assume that's been done and they are plotted on my drawing. Now I have an instrument set up on point No. 2, and I have zeroed my horizontal circle on point No. 3. My first mapped point is an inside corner of the house. The angle is 40 degrees 30 minutes 53 seconds. The distance is 2.39". (It's a very small property).

If I plot this shot by dragging the node and entering an angle on the property bar, I think the angle will refer to north, since I have the orientation set to Compass. So in order to make the shot plot properly, I will have to add the azimuth of the traverse line to the shot angle, and enter the total, 102 degrees 43 minutes 27 seconds, in the property bar.

Is there a way to plot these shots that would be simpler?

Shutterspeed6

[gadget2020]

If Mohamed won't move to the mountain, then the mountain must move to Mohamed:
When you look at a compass the needle always points north (or south in the southern hemisphere {I presume}). To orientate, you turn the map so that north on the map corresponds to the compass. In Sketch, 0º always points east - you need to turn the drawing so that it orientates along this axis.

[ctrl+A] selects all (except locked and hidden layers). Then click the [rotate] button, type in the value to rotate and click the central point to rotate around. Draw the shots and rotate it back.
{If I was doing this, I would first draw a reference line at 0º - perhaps colour it bright pink or something so it stands out. At any rotation, I can then click on this line and see what the page's rotation is from the properties bar at the top; if I rotate 'all' by negative this number, the page will restore to the orientation it started at.}

If it's a simple 90º rotation (or similar easy division) then you can drag the little blue triangle that extends from the yellow 'about point' (this only shows up on multiple selections, groups or symbols - not on individual lines.) The number of "jumps" can be defined through the [tools | drawing options | drawing | draw parameters | plus/minus rotation] field. In mine, the value is in º. There is no update to mouse position to show how much you are rotating the selection, so you have to count the jumps as you drag it. (This is easier if the mouse is far away from the 'about point' and you turn snap off temporarily by hitting before the transformation and to turn it back on again once done.)

[gadget2020]

When surveying, I don't bother with angles; I just measure throw sizes and use intersections - let the angles work themselves out. See attached.

(like using a drawing compass on paper... that was a looooong time ago.)

[Fred9002]

I'm not a surveyor, but have made pretty detailed multi-layer maps of 4 properties ranging from 9 to 620 Acres in Autosketch, including incorporating surveyor work including surveyor work that became the legal description/definition of the property. En Engineer forced to learn "chains" and "links" and "closing errors" etc. (Also incorporating GPS data, with it's own larger uncertainties plus actual measurements) .

Your post intrigued me as a chance to learn something but the referenced attachment was missing.

Thanks

Fred

[gadget2020]

Hmmm... trying to attach again....

[gadget2020]

...Maybe I need x posts before I can attach?

[shutterspeed6]

Gadget,

Yes, I see how rotation works. And I find too that I can rotate only the line I am doing a "starburst" from at any one time, by using end snap to rotate around one end of the line. Then when the shot group is done, I can select the group, including the original line, and use Align, with end snap, to restore the entire group to the proper alignment without having to enter an angle. Gadzooks!

On a completely different subject, but one that I raised earlier in this thread, do you know how to draw a curve of a specified radius connecting two previously drawn line ends? In this instance I don't know the location of the center point. The attached drawing shows the issue. The smaller sketch shows the four possible ways that a curve of a given radius could be drawn through a pair of points.

For that matter, suppose I wanted any entity, such as an elipse, to pass through these line ends. Is there a way to predraw the shape, then move it and snap it to the line endpoints?

Shutterspeed6

[shutterspeed6]

Gadget,

Yes, I see how rotation works. And I find too that I can rotate only the line I am doing a "starburst" from at any one time, by using end snap to rotate around one end of the line. Then when the shot group is done, I can select the group, including the original line, and use Align, with end snap, to restore the entire group to the proper alignment without having to enter an angle. Gadzooks!

On a completely different subject, but one that I raised earlier in this thread, do you know how to draw a curve of a specified radius connecting two previously drawn line ends? In this instance I don't know the location of the center point. The attached drawing shows the issue. The smaller sketch shows the four possible ways that a curve of a given radius could be drawn through a pair of points.

For that matter, suppose I wanted any entity, such as an elipse, to pass through these line ends. Is there a way to predraw the shape, then move it and snap it to the line endpoints?

Shutterspeed6