AutoCAD P&ID General Discussion

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craig.wood
Posts: 215
Registered: ‎02-20-2012
Message 1 of 8 (967 Views)

Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

967 Views, 7 Replies
07-19-2012 03:18 PM

I noticed that the reducers break the spec of the line and that the spec breaks act as a reducer. Is this intentional on Autodesk's part?

 

Regardless of the intention, it doesn't work well for us and creates many data issues with our line lists.

 

Another note about these two items: they seem to update line annotations on opposing sides with incorrect information when you change the value on the opposing side of the line. So if I change the size of the line to the left of the reducer, it also changes the annotation that I had placed to the right of the reducer. The same thing happens with spec breaks sometimes as well.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks,

Craig

Active Contributor
tgwestbrook
Posts: 29
Registered: ‎08-25-2010
Message 2 of 8 (952 Views)

Re: Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

07-20-2012 06:45 AM in reply to: craig.wood

I have noticed this as well.  I have assumed that this is because to have a spec break the program needs to create a new segment, and OOTB Spec and Size are attached only to the segment not to the group.  -So it cannot allow a change in spec and simultaiously enforce size consistency on both sides of the spec break.

 

For most of our projects a change in spec (or any process conditions) requires a new line number rather than a new segment, which made the break useless anyways.  

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quentin.contreras
Posts: 313
Registered: ‎03-02-2010
Message 3 of 8 (934 Views)

Re: Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

07-25-2012 10:16 AM in reply to: craig.wood

One work around is to create new reducers that do not break the line segments. You could make the reducers act like valves and make the reducers inline instead or segment line breakers. However, reducers would not automatically update by changing the line size. Also, new reducer tag would have to be made because it would not take the correct information from the line. In addition, you would need to figure out a way to have it flip to point the correct direction. I had to do this once because I wanted the line to read from one piece of equipment to another piece of equipment. But, the reducers will not let this happen. The above work around was the only solution I came up with at that time. All worked fine with exception of the reducer randomly flipping on its own for no reason. I have included a screen shot to where you can change the setting of how the reducer join style can be changed. If you are wanting to try this I would make a new reducer and do not change the existing reducer.

 

07471220.png

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Quentin Contreras
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Rave.Tam
Posts: 204
Registered: ‎05-19-2011
Message 4 of 8 (924 Views)

Re: Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

07-25-2012 07:04 PM in reply to: quentin.contreras

I don't think the line size will change after the reducer if using inline configuration. What's the point of using a reducer then

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cbeinecke
Posts: 47
Registered: ‎05-13-2008
Message 5 of 8 (919 Views)

Re: Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

07-26-2012 07:32 AM in reply to: craig.wood

This is intentional. As already explained, reducers are Segment Breakers. The same applies to Spec Breakers. As mentioned you could theoretical change the symbols to Inline components, but you will loose functionality. Some things in P&ID are just hardcoded and are not very flexible.

 

Regarding the annotations: If you have an annotation line segment and insert a reducer into the segment, the annotation is still connection/linked to the "original" line segment even it this means that the line segment is on the other side of the reducer. You have to move the annotion or create a new one.

 

You meantions that spliting the line segment into two doesn't work for you. May I ask why?

 

Regards,

 

Carsten

Mentor
craig.wood
Posts: 215
Registered: ‎02-20-2012
Message 6 of 8 (733 Views)

Re: Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

12-06-2012 12:18 PM in reply to: cbeinecke

Hey Carsten, I just realized that I never replied back on this post....

 

So the issue happens when....Say you have information (size, spec) populated in a line, and the line has a reducer in the middle of it. Then someone wants the spec of the line to change, so they click on the line and change the spec to something else. The reducer prevents the new spec value from propagating into the other segment attached to the reducer.

 

This same scenario is also a problem if you were to replace the reducer with a spec break and want to change the size of the whole line.

 

If Autodesk allowed the reducer to acquire the line spec and pass it to the other line segment, and likewise allowed the spec break to acquire the line size and pass it to the other line segment, the problem would be solved.

 

Craig

Active Contributor
cbeinecke
Posts: 47
Registered: ‎05-13-2008
Message 7 of 8 (727 Views)

Re: Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

12-07-2012 03:59 AM in reply to: craig.wood

Hi Craig,

 

we are currently developing a new PlantTool called PlantSpecDriven. One of the features is what we call AttributeFlow. This feature allows the "flow" of information (property values) from one Pipe Line Segment to other Pipe Line Segments of the same Pipe Line Group. Unless there is a symbol which stops the flow intentionally. Which properties are supposed to "flow" can be configured.

 

Would this help?

 

Carsten

Mentor
craig.wood
Posts: 215
Registered: ‎02-20-2012
Message 8 of 8 (721 Views)

Re: Reducer = Spec Break & Spec Break = Reducer

12-07-2012 08:46 AM in reply to: cbeinecke

Carsten,

 

That would likely solve the problem. Email me when that module becomes available and we will definitely be interested in checking it out. Judging by the name PlantSpecDriven, I'm guessing that we'll be very interested in purchasing it even just for it's main features alone.

 

Thanks!

Craig

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