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3D Plumbing Piping

23 REPLIES 23
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Message 1 of 24
Anonymous
1660 Views, 23 Replies

3D Plumbing Piping

Will AutoDesk Building Systems include 3D plumbing piping? What is the use
of creating a complete layout with 3D HVAC, electrical, and building objects
and not being able to include the plumbing piping? This is especially
important for creating sections and when completing coordination drawings.

--
Pat Temporale
PFC Consulting & Design
23 REPLIES 23
Message 2 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Pat -

As you no doubt now know, 3d plumbing Imperial was introduced by ABS 2004.
3d US Metric was introduced by the ABS 2004 Extension 1.

I hope this helps!
Message 3 of 24
DuckMan
in reply to: Anonymous

>As you no doubt now know, 3d plumbing Imperial was introduced by ABS 2004

They did a very good job hiding it
Message 4 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

It's possible to do 3D plumbing design with ABS 2006. I recently did it on a project... I had one day to do it and I figured it would be less time consuming to figure out how to do it in 3D than to do the floor plan, isometrics, etc.

But you do have to do some manual set up work before hand.

1st open up the mechanical piping system definitions.
Right click on the "Pipe Definition Systems" in the left hand column and click "New"

Set up your piping layers (ie Domestic Cold water, gas, hot water, sanity sewer, etc). DO NOT start with any of the mechanical piping as a basis.

On the next tab "Design Rules" enter in the abbreviation, but do not specify a system group, the only ones available pertain to mechanical piping. The set your layer key and then manually set up the discipline designator (P), then the major and minor 1. You can set all of them up, but it's not necessary.

This is where it gets tricky (and took me about 30 minutes to finally figure it out). At this point, hit apply and then "OK" or just hit OK. Now go to "Add Pipe" and draw a section of pipe for each new pipe you created. Don't worry about the color or linetype at the moment... Don't worry about connecting the pipe to anything, just draw the pipes on the sheet.

Once that is completed then open the "Piping Systems Definitions" again. Click on a pipe you just created, ignore the 'Rise/Drop" and "Other" tabs and go to "Display Properties" tab.

You will see a list of 8 items that start with "1 line" check the box in the "Style override" column and then click the "Edit display properties" icon in the upper right hand corner. Highlight all display properties in the box and then specify your standards for the "Layer" (this is why it's important to draw the pipes you created, once you draw them, then the layer will show up in the list, if you haven't drawn the pipe yet, then the layer will not appear) "color", "linetype", "lineweight", and "LTscale".

ABS is not as intuitive for the plumbing in 3D as it is for the mechanical, but let's face it plumbing design is considered the red headed step child of the industry...

Hopefully the attachment will work... I've attached a portion of a job I did in 3D. Included is the model tab, work tab, enlarged tab and a sanitary sewer isometric. Once I did the design in 3D, then all the rest was just a matter of changing the settings, for example for the iso metric, I changed the setting from ABS Ceiling -2 to ABS ISO -Schematic, then I clicked the "Model" button at the bottom of the page and changed the 3D view to SW isometric.

Now I'm working on getting the schedules to work properly and that is a task in and of itself.
Message 5 of 24
DuckMan
in reply to: Anonymous

Ill try this.. but once again, this is a work around that shouldn't have to happen and it still doesnt have all the necessary fittings... just basic stuff.
Message 6 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I agree and it's my understanding a lot of these problems will be resolved in 2007, but yes there is a lot of manual work to do.

I have found most fittings are included and for the ones that are not, I just pick the one that looks best on the construction documents.

One thing I forgot to mention it's very important to pick the correct "connection" type. For domestic water and gases I used "Brazed" tube Copper. For any waste and vent I use "Glued" thermoplastic PVC, since they don't have a cast iron option. How they cannot include cast iron is beyond me.

One thing I just noticed recently, in the "Pipe fittings" screen, the DWV - Brazed has the most fittings.
Message 7 of 24
DuckMan
in reply to: Anonymous

Show me a horizontal carrier with an extra inlet.
Message 8 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I guess everyone does their drawings differently. If for some reason you need to show the carrier on your drawings, I doubt if ABS will be able to help you.

If I need to show a carrier with an extra inlet, I grab one of our stock carrier details and modify it. Or if we don't have it, I contact the manufacturer and have them send me one of theirs (most manufacturers have their details in CAD, but if not they have it in PDF.)
Message 9 of 24
DuckMan
in reply to: Anonymous

Thats a standard fitting! How else do you cheaply connect a urinal or lav back to back with a wall hung water closet? magic? Do you double the material and labor by using another waste and vent?

Horizontal or vertical, it's the cheapest way.

I reiterate... The plumbing module only has basic fittings.
Message 10 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I guess if you want to argue about it we can, but it would be kind of pointless. You're talking about two different things. You're talking about actuall installation and what needs to be on the construction documents.

1. A carrier for is a standard piece of equipment used in plumbing systems. That is true

2. You don't need to show a carrier on the drawings and you definitely don't need to show each urinal, wall hung lav, back to back wc, wall hung wc, etc with the carrier.

3. If for some reason, after putting "with carrier" on my schedules and spelling it out in the specs that these fixtures need carriers and providing a cut sheet for the fixture and carrier, they still need a diagram, I provide them with a detail.

4. In the scenario you described, I personally, do a wet vent between the urinal or lav and the water closet and save the cost of the more expensive carrier with an extra inlet. But all my work is with the UPC California or IPC, perhaps wet venting is not allowed in your area.

5. To reiterate... I agree doing plumbing in 3D requires a lot of manual work and is not all inclusive. And it's no where near the level of 3D mechanical.

Lastly, pipe supports are standard fittings as well, but there is no fitting in ABS for pipe supports, does that mean you wouldn't do a design in 3D because you won't be able to show pipe supports? Me... I do a detail showing a typical pipe support(if one is needed) and the in the specifications and tell them how frequently they need to support each type and size of pipe.
Message 11 of 24
DuckMan
in reply to: Anonymous

Depends on if you draw lines or virtually build a building.

Not all municipalities allow wet venting
Message 12 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Then do what I have done... write to manufacturers like JR Smith and request that they provide their parts catalog to Autdesk, so they can put things like that in their 3D catalog.

I don't show it, but if it was availble to put in there as a fitting a definitely would start including them.

Then write Autodesk and tell them to put parts like that in their 3D catalog. Which, I assume, it kind the purpose of this forum. But who knows if it gets to the powers that be within Autodesk.
Message 13 of 24
tobysmith
in reply to: Anonymous

>Then write Autodesk and tell them to put parts like that in their 3D catalog. Which, I assume, it kind the purpose of this forum. But who knows if it gets to the powers that be within Autodesk.

Actually, those types of requests do make it to us! I am fairly new to Autodesk and I have been hired to manage ABS content, which is certainly no small undertaking. I know there have been several discussions in the past about regarding the amount of available content. We are looking at ways to greatly improve the amount of quality, usable content for MEP design.

Please do contact your various manufacturers and push them to publish 3D catalogs. They have a lot more incentive to do it if users request it.

Some manufacturers have never even heard of ABS so they do not know they should be creating 3D part catalogs. Tell them to get in touch with us and we can help steer them in the right direction.

I am always willing to discuss current content and requests for future items. We will definitely try to get them included as soon as we can. Feel free to contact me directly - toby.smith@autodesk.com - to discuss items in more detail.

We also attempt to maintain a regular presence on these boards to keep up with user requests.

Thanks,

Toby Smith, PE LEED AP
MEP Content Specifier
Message 14 of 24
Hugh_Compton
in reply to: Anonymous

If you would like some simple 3D blocks of standard fittings then also try out Hercule Design (see link below). They are basic 3D solids that can be edited as you like (ie you can add your property data to them). A free trial is available as well as frequent updates. I have attached an image showing on of the models that I have done using the fittings.

---------------------------------------
CAD Resource Site
http://www.herculedesign.com/
---------------------------------------
Message 15 of 24
fdguandique
in reply to: Anonymous

Is any of the sanitary piping shown on this plan pitching? That is what gets me about doing design work like this. It looks fantastic. I want to be able to do design like this and have productivity increase dramatically. Lets face it by the time I did this floor plan and the risers in 2d it probably would have taken me more than a day, and if I wanted to go back and change it would still take longer because I have to edit a plan and riser instead of just a plan.
Message 16 of 24
kiwi designer
in reply to: Anonymous

As a "new " plumbing achitect, I am looking for a descent programme that covers 3d plumbing. From the demo's I have seen from 3d HVAC, there is still a long way to go with the development of the programme before it could quick and user friendly
Message 17 of 24
CDGOIN
in reply to: Anonymous

CADPipe http://www.cadpipe.com/ an addon to AutoCAD does a much better job of MEP that MEP2007-2009..

It's also compatible with Microstation. Unlike MEP which they will "Tell you" it is compatible. What they won't tell you is that it is only mostly compatible with 2D, and exporting or importing ABS or MEP 3D models (even with IFC) only sends out pieces of the parts and not the complete drawing. 3DS out is the only way to get your items sent out in fashion that assures the entire model and its info gets out into a translatable file.

Also CADPipe does PLUMBING in 3D the right way with slope and everything.. MEP is overly complicated and buggy. its been 5 years or more with AutoDesk on the ABS/MEP package and its still not much better than Beta Software. Edited by: cdgoin on Oct 14, 2008 5:48 PM
Message 18 of 24
tobysmith
in reply to: Anonymous

AutoCAD MEP 2010 (available today) now includes improved capabilities for 3D sloped piping. Hundreds of new content parts (mechanical joint, hubless, hub and spigot, etc) are now included for easily drawing gravity drainage systems.

Numerous other enhancements are included as well. I hope to soon post a new thread in the regular AutoCAD MEP discussion forum which explains things in more detail.

Thanks,

Toby Smith, PE, LEED AP
AutoCAD MEP Product Manager
Message 19 of 24
Dumfatnhappy
in reply to: Anonymous

I think that is a fabulous idea Toby as I'm about to emerse myself in the 2010 plumbing abyss not having a chance to use it on 2009. Are there tutorial options besides the help file?

Make it happen!

thanks! Edited by: mikecornelison9962 on Apr 15, 2009 12:15 PM
Message 20 of 24
mykkarp09
in reply to: Anonymous

Toby,
Will 2010 have better capabilities in editing the Plumbing Systems Definitions, I am trying to create piping without ticks and pipe sizes.

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