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XREF Numbers not unique between components.

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Message 1 of 16
pjs6557
1319 Views, 15 Replies

XREF Numbers not unique between components.

Hi All

I have attached an example of a drawing which contains a few relays and contacts. I have tried to add cross referencing by picking the components to show the results that are displayed on three of the relays/contacts. Two of the three have the same reference number (4)!! If I run the command for the whole drawing there are several duplicate XREFS.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

 

15 REPLIES 15
Message 2 of 16
rhesusminus
in reply to: pjs6557

Hi there.

 

I'm not quite sure what you want the references to bem since two of them have the same number (4)..

 

The references sho on what page, and were on the page, the child components are placed (via the X-Y grid).

 

I've "fixed" your frame, so that all column/row headers are equally spaced, and I've updated the rest of the cross references for your relays.

I've also inserted the correct values in the drawings X-Y Grid settings.

 

Now, the reference text shows at what column/row the child cymbol is placed.

 

Is this what you were asking for?

 

 

THL


Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
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Message 3 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: rhesusminus

Hi

Thanks for the input. The way I tried to do things was to select the component cross reference tool and select the coil and any of the contacts and the numbers appeared magically in the cross reference field. I have not typed anything in the XREF field and I am trying to use the functionality to automatically update the cross reference.Can ask if you typed in the row/column data? If not how does it get there as the contacts still show a number 4. I though that the XREF was a unique number to link the contacts of a relay to a coil.

I am using ACADE2009 and as I am sure you can see do not normally use this.

Message 4 of 16
rhesusminus
in reply to: pjs6557

 

Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
Ctrl Alt El
Please select "Accept Solution" if this post answers your question. 'Likes' won't hurt either. 😉
Message 5 of 16
PatMurnen_Adsk
in reply to: pjs6557

The cross-referencing is not what links the parent to the children. The Tag value is what links the children to the parent and the panel footprint. When you insert a contact you can relate it to the parent by typing in the same Tag (Installation and Location if using combined Tagging), or by selecting the parent using the Drawing, Project, or Parent/Sibling buttons on the Insert/Edit dialog.

 

The cross-referencing on the parent indicates where the contacts are located, i.e. drawing and reference. The cross-referencing on the child indicates where the parent coil is located, drawing and reference. This will not always be unique since there may be contacts at the same reference location.

 



Pat Murnen
Principal Content Developer
Product Development – AutoCAD Product Line Group

Autodesk, Inc.

Message 6 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: PatMurnen_Adsk

Hi Pat

OK I understand the concept now but where does the system get the data from if I use the component cross reference tool? Do I need to input the cross reference i.e. C3 grid reference in to the XREF manually?

Cheers

 

Phil

Message 7 of 16
PatMurnen_Adsk
in reply to: pjs6557

If the project is set to do real-time cross-referencing, (Project Properties > Cross-Reference tab) then this is added automatically when the components are inserted, moved, etc.

 

The style of cross-referenceing is set as a Drawing Property.

 

You can always update the cross-references all at once using the cross-reference command on the Schematic tab > Edit Components panel of the ribbon. You should not type in the cross-reference text manually.

 

You can read the Help topics about Cross-referencing at Component Tools > Component Cross-referencing in the Help with the product.

 

You can also access this information on the Autodesk wiki at

http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/AutoCAD_Electrical/enu/2011/Help/User's_Guide/110ComponentTools/1289Com... 



Pat Murnen
Principal Content Developer
Product Development – AutoCAD Product Line Group

Autodesk, Inc.

Message 8 of 16
dougmcalexander
in reply to: pjs6557

AutoCAD Electrical manages the contents of the attributes it uses.  Anytime you feel the need to edit an electrical drawing entity with a standard AutoCAD command, ask yourself might there be an intelligent tool from Electrical that handles this.  Because Autodesk chose not to turn off standard AutoCAD commands that Electrical doesn't control, you have the ability to work too hard and to "break" your drawings, by using standard AutoCAD commands when they should not be used.  Managing Electrical drawings with standard AutoCAD is almost like the tail wagging the dog.

 

That said, the XREF is an attribute that is completely managed by the Electrical code.  If you insert a child symbol (i.e. relay contact )and associate it with an appropriate parent symbol (i.e. K1) the cross-referencing is managed automatically, based upon either ladder line reference numbers, X-zones, or X-Y zones.  I noticed that your border is set for X-zones only, until rhesusminus fixed it.  He also caught the fact that the lines of demarcation for your zones were not evenly spaced.  I noticed that you have two Y zones labeled as E.  If you get these issues straight, your cross-references will be managed without your intervention, and they will contain the appropriate zone and letter combination to narrow down the exact position within a page.  If you change your component tagging to reference-based, even your symbol tags will indicate the exact position of the symbol on the page.  A typical IEC tag format is %S%F%N which in your case might name a relay as -1K3C for sheet 1, relay, vertically positioned under zone 7 and horizontally positioned under zone C.  You can further set the suffix setup to .1,.2, .3, etc., to discriminate between two relays that fall within zones 3C.

 

Attached is a screen shot from the IEC training project I use for my classes.  We only use X-zone tagging but you can see how the suffix setup differentiates between three pushbuttons that are all positioned on sheet 2 under zone 1, tagged as -2S1, -2S1.1, and -2S1.2 from top to bottom.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 9 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: dougmcalexander

Hi Doug

Great explanation many thanks. Now I understand the concept I will retain my sanity. I am having to convert electrical drawings produced in ACAD to ACADE for the specific purpose of utilising the features of cross referenceing, wirenumbering and the reporting utilities.

Regards

Phil

Message 10 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: dougmcalexander

Hi Doug

 

Having implemented the frame updated by rhesusminus (thanks) the cross references make sense. However, the source and destination arrows on off sheet wires do not seem to follow the same convention. I am seeing that they pick up the correct drawing/sheet reference but the location code seems to be incorrect. Firstly it only has a number and secondly the number does not match the grid position on the drawing. This is both ways, source and destination. Does the reference use the same mechanism as the parent/child referencing or is there another undocumented feature I have been unable to find!!?

Regards

Phil

Message 11 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: pjs6557

Example now attached demonstrating the problem even on the same sheet.

Message 12 of 16
dougmcalexander
in reply to: pjs6557

Your Drawing Properties are still set for X-Zone only tagging and cross-referencing.  That is very common with DIN/IEC standard.  Do you want to use X-Y Zone tagging and cross-referencing? It also appears from first glance, that your X-zones are not properly apportioned.  I see cross-references with a value of 3 when they should read as 2.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 13 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: dougmcalexander

Hi Dou

Message 14 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: pjs6557

Hi Doug

I don't really care if it's X or X-Y referenceing. What I am trying to get to understand is what component of the frame make the references? Also in the example why does the wire in the top left have an '8' at both ends when the source is from around E4 and the destination is around A7.

Cheers

Phil

Message 15 of 16
pjs6557
in reply to: pjs6557

Hi Doug

 

I have worked out how it works. I know its taken some time but I have found teh setup function and that has explaned it to me.

Thanks Phil

Message 16 of 16
dougmcalexander
in reply to: pjs6557

Phil, I found that both your X-zone and Y-zone lines of demarcation were not spaced correctly. I know you've been struggling with this for a while so I went ahead and corrected it.  I also fixed a few other things.  The attached drawing is set perfectly for X-Y zone coordinates.  The tagging and wire numbering are set accordingly, as is the cross-referencing.  If you like this, you can save as a template.  Note: Be sure to use Settings Compare and make your Project Properties match the Drawing Properties. 

 

You might want to erase the circuitry I added while I was testing.  When creating a template it is a good idea to model a sample circuit so you can adjust line type scales, colors, etc.  For example. I added a remote location box so I could check the line type and color of the LOCBOX.  I also found a better line type for the LINK layer so the dashed link lines display better.  I added some more wire types and corrected the layer names for the ones that were already there.  The layer naming now matches the IEC 2-letter wire color label convention.  I added a default.wdw file to support wire color gauge labeling.  It is attached in a zip file since the discussion group won't allow me to upload as .WDW.  Unzip to your project folder, or your User folder if you want it to apply to all projects.

 

I noticed that your border isn't exactly dimensioned as an A3, even though that is the size called out in the title block.  I assume you are plotting to fit anyway.  I do the same thing with panel layout drawings.  Perhaps you did this in order to make the schematic symbols insert at your desired size.  You can use the Modify Symbol Library tool to modify the scale of an entire library.  I usually make a copy of the library folder first as a backup.

 

I set the cross-referencing to use the Symbol Mapping.  The only problem is that there is no scale over-ride for the ace_xref_etc. library symbols.  So I cannot select to have them insert at 2.0 scale, like you are doing for the schematic symbols.  That's another reason why I recommend working with a pre-scaled library instead of scaling everything on insert.  Now, you could just scale the ace_xref_etc. symbols up by 2 and that would solve the cross-referencing symbols themselves, but if you scale the entire library everything gets corrected and you have no need to adjust the scale on insert and you do not need to adjust the Feature Scale Multiplier.  One quick work-around I used for the main contactor on the attached drawing is that I double-clicked each symbol in the cross-reference table and checked Autofit (see attached).

 

Note: I used Project-wide Utilities to adjust the Font height for all attributes to 6.  Scaling the symbols at 2 the fonts were still a bit small for my taste.

 

One other thing I noticed is that you have no mapped attributes in your title block so that the Title Block Update can automatically fill project and drawing data into your title block.  Your FRAME001 block needs to have these attributes added and you need to map them with Title Block Setup, found on the Project Menu.  I recommend Method 2, the WD_TB mapping attribute method.  This is best done before you insert the border into a blank drawing and add the Drawing Properties block and wire types.  It can be done using BEdit, but the attributes really need to be inserted into the base border drawing, then insert this into a blank drawing, unexploded, before you add Drawing properties and wire types.  After the attributes are added to the base level border drawing use Title Block Setup from the Project menu to map the attributes.  I recommend method 2, the WD_TB method.  It helps if you already have a default_wdtitle.wdl file created before you use Title Block Setup.  See the 11-step guide to creating a smart template on my Tips and Tricks page at www.ecadconsultant.com for more information about creating a smart template.  If you need further help contact me and ask about Web-based training and support options.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.

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