Where to start!!!

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I have just been intruduced to Autocad Electrical and did the getting
started excercise but too many questions remain.

Is there anything like a proper tutorial on this somewhere as the "getting
started" book seems to me more of a propaganda thing then anything else.
And is there a way that I can extend my 30 day trial for say another 30 days
so I can have a bit more of a serious play with the software.
I hope the full package comes with a proper tutorial but if not than I don't
think that autocad electrical is for me.

Any info would be much appreciated

Thanks in advance.

Rog'

[Anonymous]

Actually, the Electrical Help provides the basic information. In the Help dialog box at the top left, click on the Contents tab, then expand the topic lists. You will find just about anything you want to know about AutoCAD Electrical. There is no printed user's manual, but you can print any of the topics you wish from the Help list.

As for an actual tutorial, I don't think that one exists any more. But the basic concepts of ACE aren't that difficult. It's mainly a matter of learning the toolbuttons and what they do.

If you compare ACE with other simlar "wannabees", you'll soon see that it much easier to use than those, more user friendly, and totally AutoCAD DWG format, with no standard AutoCAD commands disabled. I used the test drive for three weeks and knew that ACE was indeed the right tool for the job. If you wish to discuss ACE with me, email your phone number to me to martin_lee@mckee.com. If you are in the USA, I can call you and will be happy to talk with you.

[dougmcalexander]

Click on www.ecaddesigner.com. There are tutorials available for AcadE 2006 and 2007. Of course no tutorial is better than great instructor-based training, but the Training Companion is the best tutorial. I am an Electrical CAD consultant and I started using the training companion last year as a course guide in the classroom. Everywhere I teach the students want their own copy to use as a refresher tutorial after training.

There is a new tutorial coming out that includes a whole lesson on converting your legacy AutoCAD drawings to AcadE format automatically. You may want to check on its release date. This tutorial will actually simulate a first design project using AcadE, starting with creating your own intelligent border template, including the intelligence to drive design standards like approved wire types, ladder configuration, component tagging format, cross-referencing format, wire number format, etc. Next you load this new drawing template into a project and actually design a small machine from scratch. It takes you all the way from schematic design to panel layout and reports, including the creation of symbols and footprints "on-the-fly" during the design process, as would be the case for someone in an actual engineering environment. It even simulates an engineering change order as a result of a design review, and how the automation of AcadE can handle the ECR in seconds, as opposed to hours.

[Anonymous]

well this is the old chestnut again

there are many posts regarding the lack of any meaningful manual that comes with acade

autodesk in there wonderful cost cutting exercise have decided not to produce any user manuals with there products now and rely on people using the help command even thought the help command only gives you a dry description of the function commands with no real regard for us electrical types and how we like our documentation

autodesk has said they will take our requests on board (IGNORE US) so no manual will ever come

so your stuck with the what there is

even though they are loosing sales when the question comes " how extensive is the manual"

so troll through this user group and you might get some insight

and best of luck

[dougmcalexander]

Dude, you have no clue what you are talking about! First of all, the help system is quite good. But my box came with a thick book that shows every icon and what it does. Autodesk also has a courseware called the AOTC Essentials that is available. It can be used as a tutorial. I prefer to use the tutorial from www.ecaddesigner.com because it is written by some people who have been in the controls industry since 1988, using various Electrical CADD programs and finally settling on AutoCAD Electrical. But Autodesk does provide training materials in written form. You cannot just go around spewing out misinformation like that. Contact your dealer or Autodesk directly and ask about the AOTC Essentials Course. Or go to www.ecaddesigner.com. There is no grounds for making statements about a lack of educational resources for ACADE. Do bear in mind that this is engineering software, not simple drafting. If it was easy then anyone could do it and your job would not pay much. The higher the skill level required to do a job, the more a person who can do it is worth.

[dougmcalexander]

Martin, I have arrived at the conclusion that some people want Autodesk to sell the software with a manual that teaches them how to design. Maybe Microsoft should include a tutorial with MS Word that teaches people how to type.

I guess I have been in this industry so long (since back when you really did learn software by digging it out) that it just blows my mind that people think the help system in ACADE is terrible. It even includes a tutorial on how to convert standard AutoCAD drawings to AutoCAD Electrical format, for those upgrading from basic AutoCAD to AutoCAD Electrical. I look at the Help system and think to myself...how did we ever get by without this? But then I remember, we were just happy to be able to draw on a computer, we did not expect the computer to be the engineer.

I'm sorry but I have just seen too much whining on this forum, so I had to try and set the record straight. There are written tutorials for ACADE and a good help menu, but nothing beats instructor-based training. I wonder if these guys went to college for 4 years and never saw a professor? Did they get their degree from a book? People go to college for 4 years to become an engineer and they are unwilling to take a 3 or 4 day class to learn how to use computer-aided-design software! Instead they prefer to spend their time posting misinformation all over this forum. Some of these people could have been through the 4-day basic training and 5 days of advanced training in the time they have spent whining on this forum. Why not get trained, so you know what you are doing, and then spend your time designing?

[Anonymous]

Dude, You're spamming a product!! One sold by a person with your own last name.

It is NOT unacceptable to believe that a product of this cost and depth come with a paper manual and a reasonable training section.

I don't know about you but I spend thousands of dollars a year for a support contract tha t gets me a DVD now and again. If I want a manual I have to ask for it and it's for Autocad not AutocadE 2006.

So all that said, forgive me if I find your position biased.

Regards,

Steve

[dougmcalexander]

Steve,

The developer of the Training Companion is my brother, but he is my competition. He is a 14-year veteran field engineer of a multinational industrial machinery company with over 4,000 employees. He has traveled all over the world coordinating the installation of million dollar machines and then teaching the operators and maintenance personnel how to use and maintain them. He developed a custom training course for each unique application. He is an expert at explaining things in an easy to understand fashion. His Training Companion amounts to a virtual AcadE for Dummies.

But what he does cuts into my business. I am an independent consultant specializing in classroom training for AutoCAD Electrical. I started using it when it was called Toolbox/WD, in 1997. I only get paid when I am teaching or consulting. I do not get paid for all the postings I answer on this forum. I am not an employee of Autodesk, though I like Autodesk and believe in their products.

So why do I participate in this forum? I participate in this forum in order to see AcadE become more and more widely used, because it is my preferred ECAD tool when I design for my customers. If my customer requests that I use a different ECAD program, then I must. But the more popular AcadE becomes the less I have to use other programs. I’m not saying that there are no other good ECAD programs, but none as configurable as AcadE, and certainly none as powerful as AcadE with as easy of a learning curve. Some may have one or two features that work better but I am looking at the features I use 90% of the time. AcadE rules where it counts most!

How can I afford to participate in this forum if I am not being paid? Many of you are on the clock being paid by an employer while you post your questions here. And many of you are on the clock while answering those questions. We in the ECAD community thank you and your employer for your time and effort. It helps us all. I have no employer paying me to be here. I get on any chance I have between consulting jobs, just to break away from the grind while designing, and on breaks or lunch time while teaching. You may see me posting at 3:00 a.m. sometimes because I was working late and needed a break. I also happen to know that some of you are in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East and you may like getting an answer at 9:00 a.m. your time, or 3:00 a.m. my time rather than waiting until the rest of the USA gets to work. And I learn from this forum as well. Researching your questions sharpens me. It is a good place to visit because we all help one another and we get to have a say in the direction that Autodesk takes AcadE. Believe me; they do pay attention to this forum.

But just in case someone has the notion that I participate in the discussion forum for personal gain, I wanted to make it clear that I do! I like to help people who want to be helped and I get a personal satisfaction out of that. I like to help steer the development of the program in directions that make my job easier to do with less human error. And I want Autodesk to sell more and more seats so they will have the funding to invest in the development of all the features we all ask for on this forum.

Now back to the Training Companion. The Training Companion was something I asked my brother to develop for me only, to use as an enhanced guide in my classroom. The problem is that my students last year started asking their resellers if they could purchase a copy to use later as a refresher. I did not want my brother to sell the Training Companion to anyone at first. However I knew that he had the right to recover his development costs. So I asked him to only sell through Autodesk resellers to people who had attended classroom training. If you call him now and ask to purchase a copy of the Training Companion he will most likely direct you to a reseller.

Wayne’s program has since expanded and now includes both a 2006 and 2007 version which parallels the Autodesk AOTC Essentials course, but with animations and expanded areas that focus more on the actual engineering environment. His newest course will have the student actually develop an intelligent border and design a machine, including design reviews and the processing of engineering change requests. It is more like an Electrical CAD simulator.

I have had mixed feelings about mentioning the Training Companion on this forum, for multiple reasons. If people are able to convince their Autodesk reseller to sell them the Training Companion without attending my classroom training then my brother is effectively cutting into my business, and it will be my own fault. But also I expected that someone, like you, would bust my chops and think that I am trying to make money off of it. I did not even divulge the existence of this Training Companion for a very long time, until I was provoked by a posting that alleged that no tutorial exists for AcadE. So here I am getting my chops busted for giving out information that can potentially hurt me. But what should I do? Not mention that I happen to know that such a tutorial exists? Or shall I only mention that Autodesk has one and thus thwart my brother’s business? You will notice that he never posts on this forum for any reason, let alone to advertise, so I could hurt him by keeping quite about it. Would that be the right thing to do? Would you withhold information about something great, just because it was developed by your brother and it could potentially hurt you? If his training program was no good, I would be glad not to mention it, and maybe my mother would understand why. Shall I just let people go on believing that no tutorials exist? The fact is that there are at least two. The AOTC Essentials course from Autodesk and the Training Companion from www.ecaddesigner.com. I am compelled by honor and integrity to divulge this. I am sorry if it offends anyone.

[Anonymous]

rants like these usually mean we hit a sore point

just out of interest if there was a decent manual like all the opposition products would that mean that there would be less people going on your training courses because they could actually find the correct information ?

why do you think this user group is full of people asking basic questions because they find it hard to find the correct information in the help files ?

we could go into all the usual name calling but the facts are very simple

autodesk couldn't buy the company they wanted for an electrical solution and searched around and bought a company on the verge of bankruptcy VIA and they are putting there mechanical spin on a electrical discipline they tried that before and failed !

don't they ever do a lessons learnt report ?

now here is the point that is going to hurt

acade has failed year in year out to hit the projected sales targets its a matter of time before something is going to give with the bean counters

as for the opposition most of the quality ecad programs are written in germany do you know how hard it is to lay of people in germany ?

if acade survives the next couple of years the opposition will still be there even against some Autodesk salesmen statements that's its all finished for the opposition

as to your customer base only wanting acade my customer base is the total opposite

most want anything but acade as they know its "its not man enough for the job"

if you want to get into what's wonderful about acade compared to the opposition you name it i will destroy it

and this will be based on the latest release of the opposition product not anecdotal evidence that starts when i used xxx 5 years ago it didn't do this

[Anonymous]

Dude, you don't have to like or use AcadE. In your words, "this is the same old chestnut", and you yourself are contributing to it. This forum is for exchanging ideas and information about AcadE and nothing else. So keep your stuff to yourself and stay the heaven out of here.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree with you, Doug. Most of the whinners (babies) just want to be spoon-fed. They are too lazy to figure it out fore themselve.

It's too bad that there are those who are so ignorant to bring back dead issues to this forum. They waste a lot of their time and our time with their posts. And if they get offended by the reference of being ingnorant, perhaps they should learn the difference between "there" and "their".

AcadE, nor any other wannabe package, will make a designer out of anyone, any more than a drafting board, T-Square, triangle, pencil, and a sheet of paper made someone a drafter. One has to know what they are doing first. Of course, most of the whinners probably don't know what those things are. They never had writer's cramp.

I've read your other posts, and you are right on. Ant it's true, at least for me, I am "on the clock" for most of the time I spend here. Once in a while I am at home, but that's mostly on weekends. Keep up the good work.

[dougmcalexander]

Martin, you just hit the nail on the head. This guy is just a plant from the nervous competition. I just spent two weeks touring Europe and actually teaching AcadE to people who are currently selling the "competition." I did not know this was the case until I was already there. Several of the guys actually work for the competition and the rest were resellers of the competition. There were people there from the 4 or 5 major European ECAD programs.

One of the guys who works for one of the competitors said to me that, "at the end of the day, AutoCAD Electrical will take over this market!" He went on to say that it may be two years or three years, but he has watched AcadE develop considerably more in one year than his program has in a couple.

I was introduced to the latest version of the biggest selling ECAD program in Germany, the one that I once used when I was employed by a German company. Two of their top reseller/engineers were in one of my classes. This program currently owns 40% if the market in Germany. In the first two minutes of their presentation, I asked them a question that stumped them. These guys are the Guru's of this program. But they could not perform an ECR that is simple with AcadE. They admitted that they would have to erase wires (losing wire number, size, and color information) and replace them based on the new project parameters I specified, in order to process the ECR.

Another thing that is elementary for AcadE that none of the ECAD programs over there could handle nearly as well, or at all, was in the area of converting from JIC to IEC and IEC to JIC. Representatives from at least two of the other ECAD companies were taking notes on how AcadE so easily automates the conversion process. So I would not be shocked to see a "me to" coming soon from one or two European ECAD solutions. One of the guys even blurted out an "Ah Hah" when the light bulb went off in his head! Why is this important to these guys? It is because they are trying to tap new and larger markets, especially U.S. customers. So now the rigidity of their ECAD program is hurting them. They shared this with me openly and honestly. Their potential U.S. customers are requiring ladder diagrams and JIC symbols. But even worse, each U.S. customer has its own unique requirements with regard to device tags, wire number schemes, cross-referencing formats, wire colors, and more. From that perspective, the flexibility and configurability of AcadE becomes its biggest plus!

So it seems that a sore spot has indeed been struck. But I don't know why people should be so bent out of shape. Use the ECAD program you are comfortable with and be happy. If it isn't AcadE, then don't clog our forum with your negativity. I like some aspects of the other programs myself, but not enough to switch. I continue to live by my 90% rule. AcadE does the 90% I use all the time better than the others. You like Vanilla but I like Chocolate, and that is fine! If you want to learn about Chocolate let’s visit. If you want to tell be how terrible Chocolate is "in your opinion" then stay away. As Martin pointed out, this forum is for AcadE users to share ideas. It is not for competitive "plants" to bash Autodesk. Granted Autodesk is big enough to take it, but you are clogging our pipeline. I need to be answering legitimate application questions, not engaging in apologetics.

By the way, the reason people visit this form and ask so many questions is because AcadE is so flexible, powerful, and configurable that it can adapt to almost any design environment. It would be impossible to write a manual about AcadE that covers all its capabilities, because they have not all been discovered yet, not even by Nate (see Nate's Blog). That is one of the main purposes of this forum. The European ECAD programs are very rigid! They do a great job at only allowing certain methods of design. They really do! But for those of us who want to think and design globally, AcadE allows us the flexibility to do that. There are almost as many design standards in the U.S. as there are companies. Why? I think perhaps because designers in the U.S. want to be creative. What makes up the psyche of an engineer? He/she is a technology artist. Artists want to be creative! They want to “put their stamp” on their work. AcadE allows for that flexibility. If Autodesk were designing for Germany only, it would be quite simple to "lock down" AcadE to live by certain rigid rules and never deviate. American customers, and many Europeans I met on my trip, prefer a program that moves with them, rather than stifling them. AcadE is the ECAD solution of the future because Autodesk continues to focus on making it adaptable. While that adaptability may be viewed by some as difficulty, it is highly respected by those who have realized that the world is getting smaller.

One question we must ask ourselves when making a choice between ECAD programs is this: Do I want simple and easy to learn with limited flexibility or do I need ultimate flexibility? If I need ultimate flexibility then I must be willing to commit the time and effort to learn how to “control the machine”, to coin a phrase. And that is the primary purpose of this forum.

[Anonymous]

Amen

[Anonymous]

Its nice to think of me as a plant paranoia must run high in your little world

No I’m not a plant or representative from another organisation for the simple reason there is Autodesk and then there’s nothing well that’s the official line

And its even better that you can spend all your time writing large tombs defending your position nice job if you can get it

Hears mine

You pay me I do the design in crayon, pen and paper or any cad system you care to choose

And hence I get exposed to multiple cad systems working quite happily out there

Driving the machine and other buzzword comments basically tell me from experience and frustration that acade is to overly complicated and no matter how you try to defend your position the amount of postings complaining about a lack of functionality, bugs obscure or vague documentation doesn’t do the product credit

It also makes the product pig slow this is from personal experience running alternative products on the same pc so we have a level playing field here

You can sit there and sing the praises but that doesn’t address the basic problems the product got and unless we kick up a storm things don’t change

The product may work happily in JIC format but the IEC implementation can only be charitably defined as piss poor

Just a parting shot if it’s as dominant and successful as you firmly believe why is Autodesk currently running a promotion of 66% of list price here

Sounds like Autodesk has missed there sales targets again !!!!

[Anonymous]

If I had known before that my post would end up in a riot like this I
would never ever have asked the question in the first place



It is also disappointing that the tone of the replies is such that it makes
me wonder what level of intelligence I'm dealing with here.

It is surely not the level of intelligence autocad electrical is aimed at
serving



I could write a few replies to different people here too but that would put
me on the same level so I won't



Carry on guys I'm out of here and



I will not bother you people any more I PROMIS-E





A very disappointed



Roger W.

[pmccutcheon]

Just as an observation:
-the old VIA manuals seemed thicker, more comprehensive than the AE2007 "getting started".
-Promis-E manuals seem thicker, more comprehensive than AE2007 "getting started"
-AE is a a relatively expensive product (? 4X MS-Word) ... so I expect more
-AE has a a relatively small user base - there just aren't that many people out there writing books you can buy on the product ... so we depend on Autodesk more
-Autocad provides extremely thick manuals on "basic" autocad (fill out the bingo card that comes with AE!) which I really don't need ... I'd rather have a thicker AE manual
+the help system is getting better and is more comprehensive

For myself, I was extremely fortunate to work at a company that had already set VIAWD/AE up, and had people I could ask questions. It would be extremely daunting (to me) to setup from scratch. (could probably do it now though)

I don't think Getting Started walks you through the key setup steps you have to make (what style, templates, titleblocks, block library etc) However, its not bad, a good first intro.

The icon section is useful, but perhaps too much of the manual is dedicated to this relatively mundane topic.


Training ... I've been told a number of incorrect things by the local dealer's people; I think a lot of them are mechanical rather than electrical; and some of them seem rude ... but its a matter of getting the right person ... be firm, ask the right questions of the dealer, make sure you get someone AE qualified, ask for the trainers credentials/background.

My opinion is you can probably get going on the drafting part yourself (this is the pep talk part). I would probably hire a trainer, but would focus on getting you confiuged, setup, organized.

How much training? Maybe two days intially? I'd have the guy come back after 3 weeks or so for one more day. Its a lot to digest at once.

[dougmcalexander]

I applaud Autodesk for making this forum available to anyone. I suppose that if PROMIS-E had one it might be filled with much of the same negativity, from those who want to focus on what might be wrong, rather than what is right and how to make the best use of it.

When any company opens itself up to scrutiny, it will get it, and often at full force. I would conjecture that Autodesk is quite confident in their products since they are willing to spend their money to host this forum. Microsoft does the same, and they catch quite a bit of negative commentary as well. In fact I see more negative than positive postings on their forums. It's human nature to focus on the negative. That's why the news media reports bad news and almost never reports good news. We see that with the war on terrorism. We hear about the death and destruction but we don't hear about the schools and hospitals that the coalition forces are helping build.

But, like Autodesk, Microsoft seems confident enough in their product to take the criticism. Bill Gates is still the richest man in the world, and Microsoft has created more millionaires than any other company in the world.

Software is not perfect and probably never will be, as long as humans are developing it. One release from one company might be better than their competitor "this year" and next year the competitor is on top. I would pick a software provider that you trust has the commitment and financial backing for continual improvement and jump on their train. I did and I am happy with my choice!

If you choose to make your living working with software, you better be ready to face the fact that each release is a work in progress. If you think software is so bad, go back to the drafting board. Then you can post negative comments on their bulletin boards and the forums of the ruler, pencil and eraser companies too.

[Anonymous]

At last an unbiased and level headed response to my original question.

At least I don't feel so dumb now knowing that having to set up AE all by
myself with no-one to turn to, can be daunting.
That's the way I see it now but we'll see what happens I have a bit over a
week left on my trial version

Thanks for the reply pmccutcheon.


Roger W


wrote in message news:5315446@discussion.autodesk.com...
Just as an observation:
-the old VIA manuals seemed thicker, more comprehensive than the AE2007
"getting started".
-Promis-E manuals seem thicker, more comprehensive than AE2007 "getting
started"
-AE is a a relatively expensive product (? 4X MS-Word) ... so I expect more
-AE has a a relatively small user base - there just aren't that many people
out there writing books you can buy on the product ... so we depend on
Autodesk more
-Autocad provides extremely thick manuals on "basic" autocad (fill out the
bingo card that comes with AE!) which I really don't need ... I'd rather
have a thicker AE manual
+the help system is getting better and is more comprehensive

For myself, I was extremely fortunate to work at a company that had already
set VIAWD/AE up, and had people I could ask questions. It would be extremely
daunting (to me) to setup from scratch. (could probably do it now though)

I don't think Getting Started walks you through the key setup steps you have
to make (what style, templates, titleblocks, block library etc) However, its
not bad, a good first intro.

The icon section is useful, but perhaps too much of the manual is dedicated
to this relatively mundane topic.


Training ... I've been told a number of incorrect things by the local
dealer's people; I think a lot of them are mechanical rather than
electrical; and some of them seem rude ... but its a matter of getting the
right person ... be firm, ask the right questions of the dealer, make sure
you get someone AE qualified, ask for the trainers credentials/background.

My opinion is you can probably get going on the drafting part yourself (this
is the pep talk part). I would probably hire a trainer, but would focus on
getting you confiuged, setup, organized.

How much training? Maybe two days intially? I'd have the guy come back after
3 weeks or so for one more day. Its a lot to digest at once.

[Anonymous]

Hi Roger,
I you're working over the weekend and come up with some issues / questions,
please let me know. I'll try to help.
Nate.

"roger" wrote in message
news:5316369@discussion.autodesk.com...
At last an unbiased and level headed response to my original question.

At least I don't feel so dumb now knowing that having to set up AE all by
myself with no-one to turn to, can be daunting.
That's the way I see it now but we'll see what happens I have a bit over a
week left on my trial version

Thanks for the reply pmccutcheon.


Roger W

[Anonymous]

After my initial 2 days of training with Aceri I was presented with 2 volumes of "Essentials (IEC Standard) which is labelled "Autodesk Official Training Courseware".

There may be a JIC equivalent?

I haven't had a chance to use to any great depth but from the contents I can see that it is far superior in content than the Getting Started manual is.

I don't know if this is a normal thing to do by training providers or I was just lucky.

Maybe it is worth speaking to your resellers and enquiring about his manual?

Colin