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Title Block-paper space or model space

16 REPLIES 16
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Message 1 of 17
Pcosta
7214 Views, 16 Replies

Title Block-paper space or model space

I am trying to get are standards in place and are company is going from R14 to 2005 & soon to 2006. I understand paper space and model space but I am not sure if I am setting my drawings up right. In drawing in Acad Electrical 2005 it seems to be putting everything on model space. What I want to know is should I put my title block on paper space or leave it on model space when doing wiring diagrams, bill of materials, etc. With doing Panel elevations we need to have are title block on paper space.
Thanks for any help.
16 REPLIES 16
Message 2 of 17
testsubject
in reply to: Pcosta

I cannot say this strongly enough: the only thing that should be in Model space is the model (or in our case the diagram or Reports). If you are not using Paper space for all your titleblocks you are not taking advantage of the best thing about paperspace; The ability to independently scale your titleblocks with your diagrams.

Also, all model space drawings should be at a 1:1 scale. Use the titleblock with a viewport to set the scale of the plotted drawing. This way you do not have to think about switching between scales while trying to draw the image and if you need to change plot sizes, just use a different Titleblock and viewport to rescale the model. The model itself never changes.

Sorry if this came off like a rant but I have received too many drawings from other companies and they still scale the model and not use paperspace. When this happens I have to figure out which scale they used (and I have seen some weird ones) before I can insert it into my drawing.

Robert Hanrahan
ACE user since 1998


Bob Hanrahan
Ace User since 1998
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Message 3 of 17
Pcosta
in reply to: Pcosta

I would like to know if you are working with Acad 2005 Electrical. Seems when you do the commands they are in model space.???
Message 4 of 17
MartinLee
in reply to: Pcosta

I prefer to use all model space, and that's the way ACE is out of the box. It's guys like Robert (Sorry!) who drive me #$%@#%@#$ trying to get the borders back into model space. All of our drawings are 1:1, and I use a lisp routine to scale the media size, border, and set other parameters based on the selected scale. But then, I've been using AutoCAD since long before paper space was an option, so I'm used to seeing all of the drawing, including the border. But that's the nice thkng about ACE, each user can have the look they want.
Message 5 of 17
testsubject
in reply to: Pcosta

Martin,

Here is the point where we agree to disagree. What a wonderful product! My problem with users who do everything in model space is that they would scale the drawing down to fit into the titleblock instead of the other way around. When that happens, some precision is lost due to rounding errors that are generated from the reduction. If they did it the way that you do, I would not have a problem with it.

I have only been using Autocad since Release 11. I think that Model/Paper space was already in place at that time. Before that I was a DesignCad man.

I do not exactly understand what you mean about getting the "Borders back into Model Space." Or do you mean that it drives you crazy trying to move the border that "I" have placed in paper space over to model space?

What I want to see is the ability to plot from multiple Layout pages (within ACE). Then you can have closeups of various sections of a panel without having to copy it to a new diagram and zoom in. (Try doing that in Model space) 😉

Robert Hanrahan
ACE user since 1998


Bob Hanrahan
Ace User since 1998
If this answered your question, please click on "Accept Solution"
Message 6 of 17
testsubject
in reply to: Pcosta

PCosta,

I am still transitioning over to 2006. Right now it is about 2005 80%/2006 20%. As Martin pointed out, all the component insertions are done from within model space. This is ,IMHO, the best way to do it.

How you decide to plot the diagrams is up to you. As you can tell just between Martin and I there are two different views on what is best. Maybe I need to readjust my previous statement to remove the bias. What works best for you is the best. It is a nice thing that ACE is so customizable.

Robert Hanrahan
ACE user since 1998


Bob Hanrahan
Ace User since 1998
If this answered your question, please click on "Accept Solution"
Message 7 of 17
MartinLee
in reply to: Pcosta

Robert,

I don't intend any offense to you (or anyone else) for using paper space. It seems to be a bit of a process to move the title block from paper apace into model space. I have limited understanding of what it can do, but generally think that it may be more useful for meckanical applications. For me, electrical schematics are "dot to dot" drafting, so I don't see much benefit for paper space in this application. But if people like it, again, that's the beauty of the product. And I do have some building layout drawings in vanilla AutoCAD where the building is 1500 feet long, so I suppose that paper space might have some adantage there.

I've been using AutoCAD since Sept, 1986, which I believe was v2.18, and of course, DOS. What we have now smokes compared to then. ACE Rules!

When I first began using CAD (pre-AutoCAD), the training instructor said to always insert symbols at full scale. That was the best advice I've ever received. BTW, years ago we wrote a Lisp utility that sets drawing scales and other drawing parameters from 1"=1" to 1"=100', media size, and inserts and scales a border if desired. We've standardize to one media format and use a prototype project, and DWTs for a new drawing, but we still use it to freshen or rescale a drawing.

Martin
Message 8 of 17
testsubject
in reply to: Pcosta

I wasn't offended Martin. It just shows how versatile the software is that both types can co-exist.


Bob Hanrahan
Ace User since 1998
If this answered your question, please click on "Accept Solution"
Message 9 of 17
JeffatSJE
in reply to: Pcosta

I would have to agree with Martin, Use model space. Full scale everything. Paperspace is great for mechanical and showing views but no need for electrical. Use model and scale the boarder for panels and put a scale bar on the drawing and no matter what size paper you use the bar will always be in proportion to the objects within the drawing. 🙂 Oh and use Snap and ortho to keep things lined up it looks better. 😉
Message 10 of 17
MartinLee
in reply to: Pcosta

An excellent point about ortho and snap on the panel layouts. We also use (if desired) a scale bar that is inserted and scaled during the setup lisp routine we use. This also insert text to indicate the distance the bar represents.
Message 11 of 17
testsubject
in reply to: Pcosta

Jeff,

You sort of proved my point about paperspace. Why keep two different standards when one will do. If you are already using Paperspace for your mechanicals (which Martin is not doing) then why switch to model space and create a whole new standard to handle the titleblocks in Model space for electrical only? I say if you are you using paperspace for your mechanicals, the continue and use paperspace for your electricals as well. It will definitely make it easier on plotting if you use only one standard.

I would say if you plan on using paperspace, use it exclusively. The same thing goes for Modelspace. It is just more efficient this way.

I can understand Martin's reluctance to using paperspace since he has been using modelspace for so long. For anyone that is coming fresh to AutoCAD, I would suggest using Paperspace for all titleblocks. If you need to change the plotted view relative to the titleblock, I feel that it is easier to use.

Of course, this is only my personal opinion after using AutoCAD for 10 years. Your mileage may vary...

Robert Hanrahan
ACE user since 1998


Bob Hanrahan
Ace User since 1998
If this answered your question, please click on "Accept Solution"
Message 12 of 17
JeffatSJE
in reply to: Pcosta

Robert,

I not sure what you mean about the two different standards but I use model space exclusively. When I get a customers file with a paperspace boarder I find myself switching back and forth. This switching seems needless when all can be done in model space. As far as boarders I also like to know where my limits are. I suppose I could use the lock feature in paperspace but then I will have recreated a model space environment in paperspace. Hum..
Message 13 of 17
jazadd
in reply to: Pcosta

The one thing that is overlooked with the creation of Cad drawings whatever the drawing type might be is the final end user. Paper space is great. However, it is an electronic file. Plotted to paper everything is displayed, but when using a viewer or copying a drawing display for insertion into a powerpoint slide for example or for web uploading.

Unless done correctly the boarders may not show up. Because the viewer may not be capable of distinguishing paper/model space when copy clipping to the clipboard.

Customers are very important and are not always equipped with full blown AutoCAD for file viewing electronic files. Model space drawings do not present the above challenges.

Thanx
Message 14 of 17
userlevel6
in reply to: Pcosta

I must say this has been an interesting thread...
Most pertinent points have been addressed.
Yes, PAPERSPACE was originally developed primarily to help the mechanical ACAD world show different views of the same model. It certainly has additional value today, but the questions of what is "the better" or "best" way to utilize it are very subjective.
I too have been an ACAD guy since 1986, v2.18., and have embraced and written tools using LISP and SCRIPTing since about 1987. I've seen all the methods discussed here, but of course still like what I'm used to the best, and I've done it both ways many, many times.
I think of it thus:
Models ALWAYS go in MODELSPACE, drawn at FULL SCALE.
Borders, annotations and even DIMENSIONS should go in PAPERSPACE, (but there are good reasons NOT to do this as well, particularly if you don't lock your VIEWPORT's zoom factor in paperspace, using MVIEW - LOCK - ON.)
All DIMENSION features scaling should be controlled using DIMSCALE. (You may have noticed that balloon scale is linked to DIMSCALE.) In other words, set your dimension variables up for a 1=1 scale, and use DIMSCALE when you need them changed.
IF you use DIMSCALE, it is relatively easy to write routines that handle the scaling of your border block, dimensions & text sizes, or if you prefer, your VIEWPORT's zoom factor.

Where I work currently, our border is in PAPERSPACE at 1=1 scale, and we draw a rectangle in MODELSPACE that represents the available drawing area. Schematics are always drawn at our 1=1 standards within this area, and the VIEWPORT cut in PAPERSPACE matches the size of that rectangle. When we need a scaled drawing, we scale the rectangle in MODELSPACE, then unlock the PAPERSPACE VIEWPORT, perform a ZOOM EXTENTS, then another ZOOM (window) to match the corners of the rectangle and the VIEWPORT.
This is different from what I prefer, because coming from the OLD world ACAD, we always scaled the border up to fit the model, and kept track of the scale factor in the DIMSCALE setting. This worked well for me in the past scaling the border in PAPERSPACE just like I used to when it was in MODELSPACE, but then all our plotting was done through SCRIPTS that identified a plot window based on the titleblock name and the DIMSCALE. I must admit plotting is much simpler where I am now though, because we plot Extents to Fit on B-size. That works well here, but in the past I had so much trouble with people accidentally putting entities off in space, or somewhere outside the border area, that plotting Extents used to be problematic - that's how I at one time standardized on plotting Window, and tracking window points for multiple border blocks in a text database.

Anyway, gotta love a program that can be customized for YOUR company's preferences, and which way is best is in the eye of the technician using the program. The best way is generally the simplest and most efficient way, whatever that happens to be for you.
Message 15 of 17
MartinLee
in reply to: Pcosta

Aaaahhhh. The "good ol' days" of v2.18! That's what I started with. Just look at what AutoCAD is today. "You've come a long way, Baby." I wouldn't use anything else. Model space or Paper space? AcadE is like Burger King, you can "have it your way." That concept is what makes it a great tool.
Message 16 of 17
Mr.DeKay
in reply to: Pcosta

You know, I'm sick of all these old timers who say "I've used AutoCAD since Rev2 and I've always done it this way."
As the Drafting Manager of a Large Engineering firm I say to them "you look old enough to have been hand cranking your first car. Are you still hand cranking your current car?
No, of course not....Move on, get with the times. The Drawing sheet goes in Paper space and the Model goes in Model space and thats final!!"
Message 17 of 17
dtailfreak
in reply to: testsubject

Well said Ace User;  I too find it quite frustrating when dealing with drawings by others, silly stuff like the titleblock is inserted into model space and scaled up to fit around the model space content. And this coming from a company that supposedly provides cad services to many mechanical subcontractors in SF. I mean come on, it’s not that hard. Absolutely blows my mind the stuff these people do to try and make it easy on themselves, no thought given to drawing appearance, layout, borders, everything that could be wrong is wrong.

i absolutely refuse to be party to any of that no sense. Luckily I am old but I am fast.

regards, Mike

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