AutoCAD Electrical General Discussion

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*P., Omar
Message 1 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Multi level terminal blocks

1132 Views, 8 Replies
10-03-2003 02:30 AM
Has anyone figured out how to create 2 and 3 level feed through terminal
blocks that can be inserted as 1 symbol.
For example, 1 symbol with 2 or 3 terminal connections that can have unique
terminal numbers. Can this be achieved without playing around location and
ID name attributes? Or is there a way that I haven't tried yet?

TIA, for your help.

Omar P.
*Holt, Nate
Message 2 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re: Multi level terminal blocks

10-03-2003 09:06 AM in reply to: *P., Omar
Are you referring to a schematic symbol or to a panel layout/physical wiring
diagram symbol?

"Omar P." wrote in message
news:6683B25E0C90F053BD97FB790E3ED170@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Has anyone figured out how to create 2 and 3 level feed through terminal
> blocks that can be inserted as 1 symbol.
> For example, 1 symbol with 2 or 3 terminal connections that can have
unique
> terminal numbers. Can this be achieved without playing around location
and
> ID name attributes? Or is there a way that I haven't tried yet?
>
> TIA, for your help.
>
> Omar P.
>
>
*P., Omar
Message 3 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re:

10-05-2003 10:35 PM in reply to: *P., Omar
Hi Nate,

I guess my problem is 2 stage. The first is the schemtic symbol, then its
relation to the physical wiring diagram symbol.

For example, a 3 level TB. Physically, it's 1 TB but with 3 individual
connection pts.

My problem is how to create 1 symbol with 3 individual TB numbers that
include 6 wire connection pts (2 per level) and how to correctly show
from/to wiring information for each TB level.

Then, how can the schemtic information be mapped to the physical wiring
symbol and show the terminal numbers for each level?

Thanks,



"Nate Holt" wrote in message
news:535E87D437ECE5D16BEF3F3207392860@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Are you referring to a schematic symbol or to a panel layout/physical
wiring
> diagram symbol?
>
> "Omar P." wrote in message
> news:6683B25E0C90F053BD97FB790E3ED170@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Has anyone figured out how to create 2 and 3 level feed through terminal
> > blocks that can be inserted as 1 symbol.
> > For example, 1 symbol with 2 or 3 terminal connections that can have
> unique
> > terminal numbers. Can this be achieved without playing around location
> and
> > ID name attributes? Or is there a way that I haven't tried yet?
> >
> > TIA, for your help.
> >
> > Omar P.
> >
> >
>
>
*Holt, Nate
Message 4 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re:

10-06-2003 09:44 AM in reply to: *P., Omar
AutoCAD Electrical 2004 does have a feature that you might be able to use to
do this. You can insert single terminal symbols on the schematics, assign a
"multi-level" part number to the first terminal of each multi-level group,
and then let AE keep track of which levels have been used for each terminal
group, auto-assign the next level as each new terminal insertes.

The key is to use the combination of AcadE's "Catalog lookup/assignment" and
"Pin list" tracking. Refer to the on-line help, "Chapter 11 > Contact
Quantity / Pin-List Look-up > Pin List Database Table". Near the bottom of
the page there are two subsections, "Use of Type 4 Pin List Assignment -
Filtering for Special Contact Use" and "Use of Pin List Assignment for
Multi-Pole Terminal Block Units". This content is duplicated here:

===================
Use of Type 4 Pin List Assignment - Filtering for Special Contact Use

You can set up subcategories of type 4 pin combinations so that some will
apply to specific contact types and other pin combinations to other contact
types. Encode the Pin List entries with a "4" plus a character to provide
further filtering of what contacts are available for a given child contact.
At the contact end, make sure that an attribute PINLIST_TYPE (or Xdata of
the same name) carries a value of "4" plus a character to match up with the
coding in the pin list string.

For example, let's say that a given device has five N.O. contacts but they
are not all the same. Three of them are motor contacts and two are aux
control contacts. Two different schematic symbols are created, one to be
used to show the heavy-duty motor starter contacts and another symbol to be
used for aux contacts. Set up the motor starter contact symbol with attrib
PINLIST_TYPE with a value of "4C" and the aux contact symbol with
PINLIST_TYPE value "4A". Now, in the _PINLIST database table, encode the
part number's pin list information with type "4" entries but use "4A" and
"4C" to differentiate which contact pin combinations are for the auxiliary
contacts and which ones are for the starter contacts.

Ex: 4A,1L,2L;4A,1R,2R;4C,L1,T1;4C,L2,T2;4C,L3,T3

When either symbol is popped in and associated with the parent, AutoCAD
Electrical will see the symbol's PINLIST_TYPE value. AutoCAD Electrical will
filter out the contact combinations that "do not apply" to the inserted
contact type. So, popping in a N.O. auxiliary motor starter contact (preset
with PINLIST_TYPE attribute with a value of "4A") will trigger AutoCAD
Electrical to pick the next available "4A" pin list combination 1L/2L or
1R/2R. Popping in a N.O. main motor contact symbol (preset with PINLIST_TYPE
attribute with a value of "4C") will trigger AutoCAD Electrical to pick the
next available "4C" pin list combination (L1/T1, L2/T2, or L3/T3).

Use of Pin List Assignment for Multi-Pole Terminal Block Units

You can use a type "4" PINLIST assignment to enable AutoCAD Electrical to
track and control how many schematic terminal symbols can be tied to a given
terminal tag-ID (ex: a given terminal strip has a fixed number of
terminals). For example, let's say that you have a fixed, 6-pole terminal
strip unit with a mfg code of "AB" and catalog part number "1492-HJ86". The
pin markings on the terminal strip are identified as 1 through 6. Set up the
_PINLIST database with the AB and 1492-HJ86 combo defining a PINLIST of
4,1;4,2;4,3;4,4;4,5;4,6. Now, in the schematic, pop in the first terminal of
a 6-pole terminal strip, give it a Tag-ID of "TB-1" and do a catalog lookup.
Assign the "AB" part number "1492-HJ86". AutoCAD Electrical will find the
pin list info and apply it to this first peer terminal symbol as an
attribute value (it will prompt you if it is okay to add the PINLIST
attribute). Now, as you pop in additional terminals for this TB-1 terminal
strip, AutoCAD Electrical will track what the next available terminal number
is (based upon the 1st terminal's PINLIST data). When you try to insert the
7th terminal for TB-1, AutoCAD Electrical will alert you that there are no
more terminals available for this multi-pole terminal strip.
====================


If neither of the above fits your particular situation, there is a "Type 5"
pin list option that is briefly described here:

Let's say you have some kind of Wago multi-level quad terminal...
1. Apply a Wago part number to the first terminal of a group of four. Set up
your catalog number's matching PINLIST value to use "5" for the contact type
(see the on-line help for instructions on adding a part number and tying a
pin list to this part number). So, you might set up the PINLIST entry as
5,.1;5,.2;5,.3;5,.4

2. From AE's INS COMPONENT icon menu, pop in the first terminal. Type in a
terminal strip tag-ID of "T-1" and TERM number for this first instance of
this terminal group of, let's say, 12.1 for quad terminal group number 12
associated with terminal strip "T-1".

3. Then, later on, when you pop in another terminal (on this drawing or some
other in your project), the normal Ins/Edit Terminal dialog pops up. Select
terminal strip "T-1". In the "used" dialog pick an example of the main
terminal number you want to use, let's say you pick "12.1". AcadE should
scan your project and find all "T-1" terminals used so far. Then it looks
for "T-1" terminals that carry "type 5" PINLIST info (the main "parent" of
each multi-level group). Then it figures out all of the valid, full terminal
numbers that can be made up from each PINLIST info and the existing terminal
number on that terminal and compares these lists with the current terminal
number you've picked (or the number already on the terminal if you are
"EDITING" an existing terminal symbol). If it finds a match then it knows
that it has found the right multi-level "group" of terminals linked by the
Type 5 PINLIST info. AcadE assigns the next available, unused level on this
terminal. You can also hit the "pinlist" button and it will display all pins
available for this multi-level terminal and you can pick a different one
from the offered default. In this example, it would display terminal strip
T-1 terminal 12.2, 12.3 and 12.4 as being available.
*P., Omar
Message 5 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re:

10-07-2003 05:24 AM in reply to: *P., Omar
Thanks Nate!

The Type 4 pin list seems to do what I need for the "schematic" terminal
symbols. I can set the pin list for the number of pins needed for each
terminal block and my BOM / wiring info is correct.

As for representing the same tb in the panel layout, another problem
begins...

How can I show the "pin number" in the panel tb symbol. I tried creating a
"panel layout symbol" terminal block, but it seems that only the TermNo
attribute field can be shown. How can the pin assigned value be shown as a
TermNo on the panel symbol? Should I be creating this "panel layout" symbol
as a non terminal footprint or as a panel terminal?

If it's created as a non terminal fp isn't the symbol treated like a
component rather than a terminal? I getting a bit confused on the way
terminals with more than 2 connections "pin assignments", components with
terminals and components with pin lists "such as relays" are handled between
the schematic and panel environments?

Thanks,
Omar P.
New Member
jhamsher
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎10-08-2003
Message 6 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re:

10-08-2003 05:09 AM in reply to: *P., Omar
Omar,

I do not know if Nate has found a fix for this. I've been using Desc1 (2nd term) and Desc2 (3rd term) for this purpose.

John
*P., Omar
Message 7 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re:

10-09-2003 01:05 AM in reply to: *P., Omar
John,

I followed Nate's suggestion to use the Type 4 or 5 pin list assignments for
multi level tb's. By doing this, the terminal info on the schematics are
correct but, when you create the panel symbol, it only allows you to
automatically display 1 terminal number. Borrowing from your suggestion,
I've added a non WD attribute to the panel symbol. This way I can
auto-assign the top level term no. from the schematic info and have to
manually edit the lower level term no. on the panel dwg.

At this point, some manual editing on the panel layout dwg is a comprimise,
unless there is a way to do this automatically with pin-list info that I
have discovered yet....

It sure would be nice to have the schematic terminal block connection points
mappable to the panel layout terminal symbol attributes...!

Thanks for your idea!

Omar P.

"jhamsher" wrote in message
news:f19005e.4@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
Omar,
I do not know if Nate has found a fix for this. I've been using Desc1 (2nd
term) and Desc2 (3rd term) for this purpose.
John
New Member
northpoint
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎01-25-2004
Message 8 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re:

01-26-2004 07:25 AM in reply to: *P., Omar
I was hoping there would be some later posts...anyone? I have used the type 5 terminal to successfully create multi-circuit terminal blocks, but can't figure out how to get the wire numbers associated with each of the levels to appear on the panel footprint. If you use the right schematic terminal symbol, you can get the wire number for the first level to appear, but ? for the others. Any comment from Autodesk- it is apparently multi-level terms was the target for type 5 pinlists- is there new functionality yet?
Valued Contributor
Jay Mackey
Posts: 62
Registered: ‎06-21-2004
Message 9 of 9 (1,132 Views)

Re:

07-23-2004 02:02 PM in reply to: *P., Omar
I've recently started at a new company that prefers to specify which 'pin' or physical terminal connection point to which each wire is connected. So in the case of a common Wago double-level terminal block, there are actually four pins involved. We specify that a given screw- or spring-clamp terminal on a given type of terminal block is the first, second, third, or fourth 'pin'. Using the type 4 pinlist, a pinlist that usually looks like "4,1;4,2;4,3;4,4" is created for the terminal block. Then up to four terminal symbols, in this case, can be associated with a single 'terminal block'. Referring back to our internal 'pin-specification' we can then assign one of four pin numbers to each of up to four symbols, in the case of a double-level terminal block, and expect that the system will be wired-up with given wires attached to the correct level and side of the terminal block.

I'm still getting to my questions. Currently, my company only outputs some point-to-point wire reports in addition to the schematics. They have not been outputting physical terminal strip drawings, nor have they been producing backpanel drawings using the features of ACADE's panel drawing creation tools, so some issues have not yet come up for them.

Finally, they have been using the ID Name in the Terminal editing dialog box, which goes into the TAGSTRIP attribute in the terminal symbol, to represent the physical Terminal Number as well as the strip (one number per terminal block, not for each terminal block level). The format for ID Name would be something like TB2-4, indicating terminal block '4' of terminal strip '2'. The 'Terminal Number' in the Terminal editing dialog, which is being governed by the pinlist, is being used as the 'pin number' or the number that designates exacty which of the four screw- or spring-clamps to which the wire should be connected.

So, displayed somewhere in a drawing set, for a single double-level terminal block, there would be up to four symbols with visible attributes "TB1-1" and a "1" for the first pin. Under our system, we would know that this is the number '1' screw- or spring-clamp of the number '1' terminal block on the number '1' terminal strip. We also can and do show the internal wiring between the terminal pins, using a different line color, type, and weight. This wiring is put on a special 'internal terminal connection' layer, and can be hidden if desired.

My question is... Can this scheme work with the ACADE terminal strip and backpanel drawing creation tools? What might need to be changed?

I want to change the way my company numbers the terminals on a terminal block to easily indicate which pins are connected. So, I would have a pinlist that would look something like "4,1.1;4,1.2;4,2.1;4,2.2", indicating 2 levels, 2 pins per level, or "4,1.1;4,1.2;4,1.3;4,1.4" for a 'double-level' terminal block with the levels internally connected. Can I use a pinlist that looks like this?

Thanks in advance for any help,

- Jay

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