Different Symbol Types with Visibility Layers

[Anonymous]

Hey everyone,

Our office has recently switched from Autocad LT to Autocad Electrical. One of the features we are excited to use is the ability to have blocks bi-directionally update. To do this we created a Schematic Symbol Parent Block and a Panel Nameplate Block. They update perfectly and work exactly how we want them to.

There are some instances where we will need certain Field Instrument Blocks to be either a Parent Block or a Nameplate Block, depending on its function and what it needs to update with. To simplify this for our draftsmen and to decrease the amount of block files we need, we would like to use visibility states to be able to switch from a Parent Block to a Footprint Block (both blocks have the same geometry and similar attributes, we solely need the symbol difference in order for everything to update correctly).

I have looked through the block editor and symbol builder and have not found a way to change the symbol type per visibility layer. I am wondering if this is possible, and if it is, how to do it. If this is not the correct way to achieve our goal, please let us know how else we can achieve the symbol type changing with a simple drop-down menu sort of style.

Thank you very much in advance,

Hunter

[dougmcalexander]

Hmmm. Normally you link a schematic symbol to panel footprint block.  The namplate block gets its data from the footprint block it is linked to when you insert the nameplate.  For example, insert an AB pushbutton into a schematic.  Type in description text (a.k.a. Function Text).  Save the drawing.  Go to the panel layout drawing and insert the matching footprint from the Schematic List.  The schematic data is copied to the footprint.  But notice that there is no visible description text yet. Select a nameplate from the Panel Icon Menu.  Click the pushbutton.  The data from the pushbutton is now pushed into the nameplate, and multi-directionally maintained, between schematic, footprint, and nameplat. That's a quick explanation.  I recommend new users attend training.  You can spin your wheels for quite a while just figuring this out on your own, or by asking questions here.

The best advice I give new users, especially if they have been using plain AutoCAD, is to only use commands available in the ribbon menu from the Project, Schematic, Panel, and Reports tabs.  Electrical is a program that adds itself to AutoCAD.  You still have plain AutoCAD available to you, for editing legacy drawings, but you can break your Electrical drawings using plain AutoCAD commands.  Over time, as you become more experienced, you will know when you can cheat and use an AutoCAD command.  But play it safe in the beginning.

Hint: Electrical stores data in blocks in the form of attributes, utilizing an existing AutoCAD concept.  It recognizes wires by the layer assignment, and the fact that the layer is listed in the Create/Edit Wire Types list.  The project definition file (projectname.WDP) defines which dawings make up the project, which menus and libraries are used, and basic design rules.  Electrical commands may tap into and use basic AutoCAD commands, but Electrical controls which ones and in what order, and Electrical ensures that the project database gets updated.  Plain AutoCAD commands might help you make the drawing look as desired, but they do not actively interract with the database.  Not following proper workflow is what generates many of the questions on this forum.  Autodesk did us a favor by supplying a fully functional AutoCAD engine underneath Electrical, but it can cause problems for new users, or old users who haven't been properly trained.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your response doug.

We have looked into custom footprints but as you said, there is an issue on how it does not display the description text. To solve this issue, we used a custom nameplate block to display the description text, which we need, and used the geometry we needed for the symbol. The schematic symbol and nameplate block both bi-directionally update perfectly and we have no issues there. We have followed many guides, tutorials, and forums to update the database to handle the new blocks and all is well.

Our question comes in when we want to make the blocks dynamic. The end goal is to be able to have one drawing or file for a specific field instrument block and be able to use a feature similar to the visibility layers to have the drop-down menu to switch back and forth between either a schematic symbol or a nameplate block (or in other words, just changing the type of symbol it is but leaving its attributes and geometry the same). This will help cut down on the amount of drawings we have and simplify things for our draftsmen. As I said earlier, I am not positive that it is possible to do this with the visibility parameter. If it is, do you have any ideas of how to start going about this? If this is impossible by using the visibility parameter, do you know of any other parameter or feature we can use to achieve our end goal?

Thanks again,

Hunter

[dougmcalexander]

Im sorry. My answer may have confused you. You don't have to use a nameplate. I thought you wanted to. Just add the DESC1, DESC2, and DESC3 attributes to the footprints. Any properly named attribute will be updated when inserted from the schematic list. The data is pushed into the footprint as xdata if no proper attribute is found. Add the attribute and the data will be pushed into it. If the attribute is set to he visible the data will be visible. The Symbol Builder provides a list of proper attributes.

[dougmcalexander]

You can use the Move/Show attribute command to hide ir unhide attributes as needed. Dynamic blocks are part of plain AutoCAD. Electrical has its own way to handle things. If you create your blocks with Symbol Builder, you have a better chance of creating symbols that Electrical can work with and keep the data intact.

[Anonymous]

We have tried using a footprint and simply adding the DESC tags to it, but then when information is updated the text always appears in the bottom left hand corner at the origin, each attribute stacked on top of each other making them unreadable. Using a nameplate block fixed this issue, but if you know how to keep that from happening we would prefer to use a footprint. 

[dougmcalexander]

I would need to observe your method of creating a footprint. You are missing something. Footprints work flawlessly when created correctly. Where you place the attributes when you create the footprint is fixed. It should not move when updated. Of course if you change a footprint block file after it has already been inserted into a drawing, you need to run the Update Block utility.  I highly recommend attending a fundamentals class.  That helped me a lot when I started.

[Anonymous]

Oh I'm sorry a simple Purge All was all that was needed. We have it now setup so that the custom schematic symbol parent block and the custom footprint block will bi-directionally update each other.

[Anonymous]

We are still having issues trying to create one drawing that has both a schematic symbol and a footprint in it, and creating a custom dynamic block out of it. We want to be able to use the visibility parameter (or any other similar feature that would allow for easy switching) to switch from using a schematic symbol to a footprint block and vice versa. Can you help on this?

[dougmcalexander]

You don't need to bother with purge, and especially not purge all. You can lose unused wire types that you mght later need. Purge all can delete other necessary settings. Use the Update Block utility. It deletes, purges unused blocks, and restores their previous data, and it can do it project wide.

[dougmcalexander · Accepted solution]

You can use the Swap Block utility to switch blocks, but it is highly unusual to swap from schematic symbol to footprint and vice versa. Having schematic symbol and footprint on the same drawing is not a problem though. The blocks are named differently and the P_TAG1 attribute tells the software it is a footprint. Schematic symbols have aTAG1 attribute, and their filename has to follow a specific syntax.

[Anonymous]

Okay thank you very much, and I know this is an unusual situation, that's why I'm here getting help. That makes total sense as the syntax is different, that's why I was unsure about getting the visibility parameter to work for this scenario.

The Swap Block works great if we are switching from the schematic symbol to the footprint block, but when going from the footprint to the schematic symbol there is an issue using the utility. Autocad recognizes the schematic symbol as a footprint (right-clicking and choosing edit attributes brings up the panel insert/edit dialog box instead of the insert/edit component dialog box). This keeps us from quickly switching this way to allow for the ease of bi-directional updating. Is this a bug or is there a way around this issue?

[dougmcalexander]

Not a bug. Footprints have hidden data that marks them as footprints. This data is pushed into the schematic symbol when you swap it. Nameplates work the same way. When you mark something as a nameplate an attribute named NP tells the software which editor to use. You can't just keep toggling back and forth.

[Anonymous]

Okay thank you so much, this clarification helps a ton. So basically the only way to switch blocks in this scenario is to delete the old one and insert the new one to avoid any xdata being left behind and altering the connection?

[dougmcalexander]

That is a solid workflow that allows the data to be managed properly.

I wish Autodesk would disable all standard AutoCAD commands that can get people in trouble. People converting from AutoCAD struggle because they try to force the Electrical engine to follow standard AutoCAD workflow.

Electrical was an add-in before Autodesk purchased it. The competitors who still sell similar add-ins disable standard AutoCAD commands that they don't control. You can still use plain AutoCAD commands but you have to load the AutoCAD profile. There are separate icons on the desktop, one for AutoCAD and one for the electrical add-in. If Autodesk had done it that way the learning curve would be easier. Because users of add-ins realize they purchased an add-in, they know they need separate training. The fact is, Electrical is still an add-in, but the installation process installs both AutoCAD and Electrical one after the other.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for all of the help dougmcalexander, it is greatly appreciated.

We will definitely remember that it should be treated as in add-in and we need to make sure we are using the correct engine at the correct time.

Thanks again for helping solve our issue,

Hunter

[dougmcalexander]

You are quite welcome.