AutoCAD Civil 3D

[#1]

just wanted to add that it just weems like they whine because they don't get the upgrades but then they whine because they have to pay for subscription...

i apologize for any assumptions i made

[#2]

I can't comment on many of Steve's concerns yet due to various legal and
finance restictions. However...

One point that I want to be super, super clear about - The "Preview"
designation has nothing to do with why Civil Design customers are recieving
Civil 3D. The Preview is purely based on the fact that we didn't feel that
the product was ready for full scale production use. This is partially
because of defects, partialy because all of the supporting infrasture of a
trained channel, etc and partially because we wanted you folks to spend time
learning the concepts before trying to slam this into a pressure-filled
production project. I can't say when, but we are working on resolving
defects, training and educational materials, the support infrastructure, and
other items that will allow us to remove the "Preview" designator. If you
have LDT/Civil (or Series) with subscription, you'll get the production
version when it is available (not sure if it'll be a downloadable Service
Pack or if we'll ship new media).

On a separate note, the subscription program recently went through some
significant changes. This includes web-support and e-lessons. I think the
point is that product updates is now only one aspect of the program. You can
learn more at:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/section?siteID=123112&id=613372&wac=IL1
8078

As I said, we'll continue to provide details when we can do so...

Thanks
Dave S

"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
news:79176CFF5845D4D2408E84B334F2C479@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Dave,
>
> I seem to have the same status as you - LDTr3 w/o subscription. So
currently
> CD3 is not available to me. My current rationale is as follows: 1) I can
see
> no return on investment in upgrading to LDTr2004 - nothing there to
motivate
> me as to better tools or a decrease in turn-around time. 2) Autodesk is
> calling this first release a PREVIEW Edition - not intended for
production,
> so nothing immediately in CD3 to provide an ROI incentive. As I read this
> NG, it seems that CD3 is intended as a mere public beta. I can not
justify
> in my mind - paying Autodesk to beta test - which is what upgrading to
LDTr4
> and buying a subscription would entail. 3) Some CLEAR intention from
> Autodesk on how they intend to ultimately market this would help my
decision
> making - a) At some time will CD3 be able to bought without a
subscription?
> b) From a marketing stand point how will it separate from LDD? c) Can we
be
> sure that the PREVIEW edition is just nothing more than that ? - maybe
when
> the production CD3 is released, all the PREVIEW users (testers) may have
to
> purchase the Real McCoy??? In business, I find betting on future
vaporware
> does not usually work, which is why I never liked the subscription
program.
> It is probably economically wise to wait an evaluate a product before
> putting money into it. If one evaluates the buying decision as a business
> strategy, NOW does not seem to be the time to invest.
>
> That said and done, I would love to get my hands on CD3 and test drive it.
> And maybe, if reading this NG showed CD3 was at a higher level of
> completeness, I may have splurged for a play toy. But seeing the threads
on
> the in-completeness of the grading objects, the lack of roadway design,
and
> the frequent crashes; my economic conservatism seems to over-shadow the
kid
> that wants a play toy. I will continue to monitor the NG, watching how
fast
> we see significant patches and added functionality.
>
> sc
>
>
>
> Dave Lewis wrote in message
> news:9bitovcji00e8v0qunplqnlm8r18h7eulb@4ax.com...
> > We are on LDD3 (non subscription) I need to make a recommendation
> > to stay pat or upgrade. So far its do nothing.
> >
> > "Jon Rizzo"
> > |>It IS free. If you own the Civil Series or Civil Design & are on
> > |>subscription, you will receive it. Otherwise, it is not available at
> all.
> >
>
>

[#3]

OK - a question then. While reading through the Adesk FAQ for Civil 3D, I'm trying to determine if Civil 3D is intended as the long term replacement for LDD and Civil Design.

[#4]

It certainly looks that way...



"RDW" wrote in message
news:f19348c.11@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
OK - a question then. While reading through the Adesk FAQ for Civil 3D, I'm
trying to determine if Civil 3D is intended as the long term replacement for
LDD and Civil Design.

[#5]

Dave

The thing is this is just one more reason to not want to do the subscription thing, but
lets say for argument sake because I do not know the exact pricing. Now I have LDD 3
and lets say that to upgrade to LDD 2004 it costs $500. Now I am going to skip the
LDD 2004 upgrade and wait for LDD 2005 (lets just pretend this is the next release) Now
at the time of LDD 2005 are you going to charge me $500 to upgrade (No) you are going
to charge me 2 (two) upgrades which would be $1000. So in effect do I pay $500 today
and tomorrow or do I pay $1000 tomorrow. This is how the AutoCAD pricing structure has
gone in the past. Now since Autodesk put out a release that is clearly optional or preview
why should we pay today or tomorrow for this (2004) release.

Now if we went the subscription method we are basically paying for this unneeded or preview
upgrade. I don't think that is fair. But then again Autodesk has proven over time to not be
fair but try and milk the most money out of its customers as possible.

I'd love to be on the subscription plan but when things like this happen I just cannot prove
to ownership its benefits. Maybe in the future the subscription plan would be more worth the
money. Web support and e-lessions are not worth much to me. I have yet to find any benefits
to the subscription plan since the express tools were canceled.

"Dave Simeone"
|>
|>I can't comment on many of Steve's concerns yet due to various legal and
|>finance restictions. However...
|>
|>One point that I want to be super, super clear about - The "Preview"
|>designation has nothing to do with why Civil Design customers are recieving
|>Civil 3D. The Preview is purely based on the fact that we didn't feel that
|>the product was ready for full scale production use. This is partially
|>because of defects, partialy because all of the supporting infrasture of a
|>trained channel, etc and partially because we wanted you folks to spend time
|>learning the concepts before trying to slam this into a pressure-filled
|>production project. I can't say when, but we are working on resolving
|>defects, training and educational materials, the support infrastructure, and
|>other items that will allow us to remove the "Preview" designator. If you
|>have LDT/Civil (or Series) with subscription, you'll get the production
|>version when it is available (not sure if it'll be a downloadable Service
|>Pack or if we'll ship new media).
|>
|>On a separate note, the subscription program recently went through some
|>significant changes. This includes web-support and e-lessons. I think the
|>point is that product updates is now only one aspect of the program. You can
|>learn more at:
|>http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/section?siteID=123112&id=613372&wac=IL1
|>8078
|>
|>As I said, we'll continue to provide details when we can do so...
|>
|>Thanks
|>Dave S
|>
|>"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
|>news:79176CFF5845D4D2408E84B334F2C479@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
|>> Dave,
|>>
|>> I seem to have the same status as you - LDTr3 w/o subscription. So
|>currently
|>> CD3 is not available to me. My current rationale is as follows: 1) I can
|>see
|>> no return on investment in upgrading to LDTr2004 - nothing there to
|>motivate
|>> me as to better tools or a decrease in turn-around time. 2) Autodesk is
|>> calling this first release a PREVIEW Edition - not intended for
|>production,
|>> so nothing immediately in CD3 to provide an ROI incentive. As I read this
|>> NG, it seems that CD3 is intended as a mere public beta. I can not
|>justify
|>> in my mind - paying Autodesk to beta test - which is what upgrading to
|>LDTr4
|>> and buying a subscription would entail. 3) Some CLEAR intention from
|>> Autodesk on how they intend to ultimately market this would help my
|>decision
|>> making - a) At some time will CD3 be able to bought without a
|>subscription?
|>> b) From a marketing stand point how will it separate from LDD? c) Can we
|>be
|>> sure that the PREVIEW edition is just nothing more than that ? - maybe
|>when
|>> the production CD3 is released, all the PREVIEW users (testers) may have
|>to
|>> purchase the Real McCoy??? In business, I find betting on future
|>vaporware
|>> does not usually work, which is why I never liked the subscription
|>program.
|>> It is probably economically wise to wait an evaluate a product before
|>> putting money into it. If one evaluates the buying decision as a business
|>> strategy, NOW does not seem to be the time to invest.
|>>
|>> That said and done, I would love to get my hands on CD3 and test drive it.
|>> And maybe, if reading this NG showed CD3 was at a higher level of
|>> completeness, I may have splurged for a play toy. But seeing the threads
|>on
|>> the in-completeness of the grading objects, the lack of roadway design,
|>and
|>> the frequent crashes; my economic conservatism seems to over-shadow the
|>kid
|>> that wants a play toy. I will continue to monitor the NG, watching how
|>fast
|>> we see significant patches and added functionality.
|>>
|>> sc
|>>
|>>
|>>
|>> Dave Lewis wrote in message
|>> news:9bitovcji00e8v0qunplqnlm8r18h7eulb@4ax.com...
|>> > We are on LDD3 (non subscription) I need to make a recommendation
|>> > to stay pat or upgrade. So far its do nothing.
|>> >
|>> > "Jon Rizzo"
|>> > |>It IS free. If you own the Civil Series or Civil Design & are on
|>> > |>subscription, you will receive it. Otherwise, it is not available at
|>> all.
|>> >
|>>
|>>
|>

-----------------------
Dave Lewis
CAD Manager

Just say no to HTML Posts!

[#6]

Dave,

> I just cannot prove
> to ownership its benefits

based on posts in this newsgroups there
seem to be quite a few benefits and good
reasons to go for subscription, one of
which is having C3D available to start
toying around with.

Although still short in some respects C3D offers
significant functionality you can start exploring
and adjusting mindset to new logic and environment.
Also, as already mentioned in this newsgroup, in
order to significantly reduce drafting tasks C3D
offers tremendous amount of settings/styles,
and that itself will require time to get it right.

By being under subscription you get a chance
to start playing with C3D now, get used to it
and set most or all of your styles before 'preview'
designation is removed from C3D title, and once
it is removed you are ready to go, immediately.

just out of curiosity; how do you prove software
benefits to ownership? ... As your organization
you listed "Dave Lewis, Inc". Does that mean
that you are the owner?... are there other
co-owners?

Thanks,

--
Strah @ Langan


"Dave Lewis" wrote in message
news:n8t8pv877dnhmeti7ujq7trjkaavv5e3ja@4ax.com...
> Dave
>
> The thing is this is just one more reason to not want to do the
subscription thing, but
> lets say for argument sake because I do not know the exact pricing. Now I
have LDD 3
> and lets say that to upgrade to LDD 2004 it costs $500. Now I am going to
skip the
> LDD 2004 upgrade and wait for LDD 2005 (lets just pretend this is the next
release) Now
> at the time of LDD 2005 are you going to charge me $500 to upgrade (No)
you are going
> to charge me 2 (two) upgrades which would be $1000. So in effect do I pay
$500 today
> and tomorrow or do I pay $1000 tomorrow. This is how the AutoCAD pricing
structure has
> gone in the past. Now since Autodesk put out a release that is clearly
optional or preview
> why should we pay today or tomorrow for this (2004) release.
>
> Now if we went the subscription method we are basically paying for this
unneeded or preview
> upgrade. I don't think that is fair. But then again Autodesk has proven
over time to not be
> fair but try and milk the most money out of its customers as possible.
>
> I'd love to be on the subscription plan but when things like this happen I
just cannot prove
> to ownership its benefits. Maybe in the future the subscription plan
would be more worth the
> money. Web support and e-lessions are not worth much to me. I have yet
to find any benefits
> to the subscription plan since the express tools were canceled.
>
> "Dave Simeone"
> |>
> |>I can't comment on many of Steve's concerns yet due to various legal and
> |>finance restictions. However...
> |>
> |>One point that I want to be super, super clear about - The "Preview"
> |>designation has nothing to do with why Civil Design customers are
recieving
> |>Civil 3D. The Preview is purely based on the fact that we didn't feel
that
> |>the product was ready for full scale production use. This is partially
> |>because of defects, partialy because all of the supporting infrasture of
a
> |>trained channel, etc and partially because we wanted you folks to spend
time
> |>learning the concepts before trying to slam this into a pressure-filled
> |>production project. I can't say when, but we are working on resolving
> |>defects, training and educational materials, the support infrastructure,
and
> |>other items that will allow us to remove the "Preview" designator. If
you
> |>have LDT/Civil (or Series) with subscription, you'll get the production
> |>version when it is available (not sure if it'll be a downloadable
Service
> |>Pack or if we'll ship new media).
> |>
> |>On a separate note, the subscription program recently went through some
> |>significant changes. This includes web-support and e-lessons. I think
the
> |>point is that product updates is now only one aspect of the program. You
can
> |>learn more at:
>
|>http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/section?siteID=123112&id=613372&wac=I
L1
> |>8078
> |>
> |>As I said, we'll continue to provide details when we can do so...
> |>
> |>Thanks
> |>Dave S
> |>
> |>"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
> |>news:79176CFF5845D4D2408E84B334F2C479@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> |>> Dave,
> |>>
> |>> I seem to have the same status as you - LDTr3 w/o subscription. So
> |>currently
> |>> CD3 is not available to me. My current rationale is as follows: 1) I
can
> |>see
> |>> no return on investment in upgrading to LDTr2004 - nothing there to
> |>motivate
> |>> me as to better tools or a decrease in turn-around time. 2) Autodesk
is
> |>> calling this first release a PREVIEW Edition - not intended for
> |>production,
> |>> so nothing immediately in CD3 to provide an ROI incentive. As I read
this
> |>> NG, it seems that CD3 is intended as a mere public beta. I can not
> |>justify
> |>> in my mind - paying Autodesk to beta test - which is what upgrading to
> |>LDTr4
> |>> and buying a subscription would entail. 3) Some CLEAR intention from
> |>> Autodesk on how they intend to ultimately market this would help my
> |>decision
> |>> making - a) At some time will CD3 be able to bought without a
> |>subscription?
> |>> b) From a marketing stand point how will it separate from LDD? c) Can
we
> |>be
> |>> sure that the PREVIEW edition is just nothing more than that ? - maybe
> |>when
> |>> the production CD3 is released, all the PREVIEW users (testers) may
have
> |>to
> |>> purchase the Real McCoy??? In business, I find betting on future
> |>vaporware
> |>> does not usually work, which is why I never liked the subscription
> |>program.
> |>> It is probably economically wise to wait an evaluate a product before
> |>> putting money into it. If one evaluates the buying decision as a
business
> |>> strategy, NOW does not seem to be the time to invest.
> |>>
> |>> That said and done, I would love to get my hands on CD3 and test drive
it.
> |>> And maybe, if reading this NG showed CD3 was at a higher level of
> |>> completeness, I may have splurged for a play toy. But seeing the
threads
> |>on
> |>> the in-completeness of the grading objects, the lack of roadway
design,
> |>and
> |>> the frequent crashes; my economic conservatism seems to over-shadow
the
> |>kid
> |>> that wants a play toy. I will continue to monitor the NG, watching how
> |>fast
> |>> we see significant patches and added functionality.
> |>>
> |>> sc
> |>>
> |>>
> |>>
> |>> Dave Lewis wrote in message
> |>> news:9bitovcji00e8v0qunplqnlm8r18h7eulb@4ax.com...
> |>> > We are on LDD3 (non subscription) I need to make a recommendation
> |>> > to stay pat or upgrade. So far its do nothing.
> |>> >
> |>> > "Jon Rizzo"
> |>> > |>It IS free. If you own the Civil Series or Civil Design & are on
> |>> > |>subscription, you will receive it. Otherwise, it is not available
at
> |>> all.
> |>> >
> |>>
> |>>
> |>
>
> -----------------------
> Dave Lewis
> CAD Manager
>
> Just say no to HTML Posts!

[#7]

I do not feel its a good justification to pay for subscription to get beta software.
As is stated you are not going to roll out C3D to all your users. You only need
one copy to play with instead of every subscription seat. I still fail to see any benefit
to subscription except to ease the separation of companies and their money.

If you really want to play with beta software I believe you should not have to pay for it.
Then again if you really wanted to play with C3D you could probably find it on some
IRC server.

I put my organization as Dave Lewis Inc, because if you leave it blank autodesk will
automatically fill it in as AutoDesk something. Autodesk is not my organization and don't
think they should just assume that my posts belong to their organization.

How do I prove software benefits? It depends on the owner. If the owner is already confrontable
with keeping up with current technology then its not much of an issue telling them about new
features and convincing him to upgrade. Now if the owner is a cheepskate then its very difficult.
I am not the sleazy used car sellsman type. Convincing an owner who doesn't want to spend money
would take a sleazy used car sellsman type. I don't believe that the upgrade is worth the money
so there is no way I am going to convince the owner to upgrade either.

Personally I hate what autodesk has done to its customers. Its a shotgun marriage to this monopoly
and there is no way out. I basically explain that to both kind of owners. You are gona either pay
today or tomorrow. You choose.

"Strahimir Antoljak"
|>based on posts in this newsgroups there
|>seem to be quite a few benefits and good
|>reasons to go for subscription, one of
|>which is having C3D available to start
|>toying around with.
|>
|>Although still short in some respects C3D offers
|>significant functionality you can start exploring
|>and adjusting mindset to new logic and environment.
|>Also, as already mentioned in this newsgroup, in
|>order to significantly reduce drafting tasks C3D
|>offers tremendous amount of settings/styles,
|>and that itself will require time to get it right.
|>
|>By being under subscription you get a chance
|>to start playing with C3D now, get used to it
|>and set most or all of your styles before 'preview'
|>designation is removed from C3D title, and once
|>it is removed you are ready to go, immediately.
|>
|>just out of curiosity; how do you prove software
|>benefits to ownership? ... As your organization
|>you listed "Dave Lewis, Inc". Does that mean
|>that you are the owner?... are there other
|>co-owners?

[#8]

I agree. I see little benefit to being on subscription, and actually some
negatives. I kind of wish that Autodesk would go back to their 2-3 year
release cycle instead of this 1 year cycle. I don't mind paying for service
packs, but we shouldn't have to redeploy the entire application once/year
just to get 6 months worth of bug fixes.


Jon



"Dave Lewis" wrote in message
news:3qfbpvgbsc07ptvi9de99ah8p1beatb16u@4ax.com...
> I do not feel its a good justification to pay for subscription to get beta
software.
> As is stated you are not going to roll out C3D to all your users. You
only need
> one copy to play with instead of every subscription seat. I still fail to
see any benefit
> to subscription except to ease the separation of companies and their
money.
>
> If you really want to play with beta software I believe you should not
have to pay for it.
> Then again if you really wanted to play with C3D you could probably find
it on some
> IRC server.
>
> I put my organization as Dave Lewis Inc, because if you leave it blank
autodesk will
> automatically fill it in as AutoDesk something. Autodesk is not my
organization and don't
> think they should just assume that my posts belong to their organization.
>
> How do I prove software benefits? It depends on the owner. If the owner
is already confrontable
> with keeping up with current technology then its not much of an issue
telling them about new
> features and convincing him to upgrade. Now if the owner is a cheepskate
then its very difficult.
> I am not the sleazy used car sellsman type. Convincing an owner who
doesn't want to spend money
> would take a sleazy used car sellsman type. I don't believe that the
upgrade is worth the money
> so there is no way I am going to convince the owner to upgrade either.
>
> Personally I hate what autodesk has done to its customers. Its a shotgun
marriage to this monopoly
> and there is no way out. I basically explain that to both kind of owners.
You are gona either pay
> today or tomorrow. You choose.
>
> "Strahimir Antoljak"
> |>based on posts in this newsgroups there
> |>seem to be quite a few benefits and good
> |>reasons to go for subscription, one of
> |>which is having C3D available to start
> |>toying around with.
> |>
> |>Although still short in some respects C3D offers
> |>significant functionality you can start exploring
> |>and adjusting mindset to new logic and environment.
> |>Also, as already mentioned in this newsgroup, in
> |>order to significantly reduce drafting tasks C3D
> |>offers tremendous amount of settings/styles,
> |>and that itself will require time to get it right.
> |>
> |>By being under subscription you get a chance
> |>to start playing with C3D now, get used to it
> |>and set most or all of your styles before 'preview'
> |>designation is removed from C3D title, and once
> |>it is removed you are ready to go, immediately.
> |>
> |>just out of curiosity; how do you prove software
> |>benefits to ownership? ... As your organization
> |>you listed "Dave Lewis, Inc". Does that mean
> |>that you are the owner?... are there other
> |>co-owners?
>

[#9]

The smart design engineer would get this copy of Civil 3D while it is still
in some form of development, try it out, and pass along your
thoughts/complaints/ideas before it is cut loose as a full production piece.
I think AutoDesk has a GREAT idea by doing it this way. It gets the software
in semi-production on a large variety of operating systems and allows the
average everyday user to throw out new ideas for its completion. Notice when
there are new newsgroups like this one that they always have 4 or 5 AutoDesk
people lurking, looking for opinions and ideas to make it better. You won't
see that in the LDD1 newsgroup. This software is way too complicated to have
every bug fixed for every operating system scenario in the world. The more
operating systems they get it going on before it is finished, the better the
finished product will be. And then it will still have bugs. That is the
nature of software.
I can tell you this much if you haven't seen Civil 3D. It is powerful. This
is where I wanted the software to be 5 years ago.
A couple of examples:
1. Draw an alignment and the parameters for the stationing are drawn as you
click the tangent points. Result: No extra time with stationing commands.
Not that this is GREAT, but cool none-the-less.
2. Draw a profile of the alignment by clicking a couple of buttons. Edit the
profile any way imaginable by clicking a couple of buttons.
3. Grab the PI of the alignment and move it: EVERYTHING UPDATES. And I do
mean EVERYTHING.
4. No more fighting 15 different commands to get a shaded TIN view. It is
now a toggle. Click to change from contours, to TIN view to shaded relief
view.
There are probably 500 cool things like that in the new software.
AutoDesk is headed in the right direction, FINALLY!

One more note: when you decide to upgrade don't think you will be up and
running in a few hours. This baby is HUGE. The next complaints are going to
come from people who will say it is too complicated.
One more thought: Skip LDD4. Even if you have to pay for something you never
received. It is really a bug filled version of LDD3.
Steve Cannon, you should burglarize a local engineering company to get a
copy. This is your kind of candy!
Tim


"Dave Lewis" wrote in message
news:3qfbpvgbsc07ptvi9de99ah8p1beatb16u@4ax.com...
> I do not feel its a good justification to pay for subscription to get beta
software.
> As is stated you are not going to roll out C3D to all your users. You
only need
> one copy to play with instead of every subscription seat. I still fail to
see any benefit
> to subscription except to ease the separation of companies and their
money.

[#10]

yaya everyone has been saying for 5 years now we need this sort of program.

But it should be a public beta. We should not have to pay for it. Why should we
skip LDD 2004? We are going to have to pay for it anyways, either today or
tomorrow. There is no way around it.

LDD is already too complicated to do simple things. I know very few people
who really understand how to use it properly. I'm sure C3D will be more of the same.

"Tim S."
|>The smart design engineer would get this copy of Civil 3D while it is still
|>in some form of development, try it out, and pass along your
|>thoughts/complaints/ideas before it is cut loose as a full production piece.
|>I think AutoDesk has a GREAT idea by doing it this way. It gets the software
|>in semi-production on a large variety of operating systems and allows the
|>average everyday user to throw out new ideas for its completion. Notice when
|>there are new newsgroups like this one that they always have 4 or 5 AutoDesk
|>people lurking, looking for opinions and ideas to make it better. You won't
|>see that in the LDD1 newsgroup. This software is way too complicated to have
|>every bug fixed for every operating system scenario in the world. The more
|>operating systems they get it going on before it is finished, the better the
|>finished product will be. And then it will still have bugs. That is the
|>nature of software.
|>I can tell you this much if you haven't seen Civil 3D. It is powerful. This
|>is where I wanted the software to be 5 years ago.
|>A couple of examples:
|>1. Draw an alignment and the parameters for the stationing are drawn as you
|>click the tangent points. Result: No extra time with stationing commands.
|>Not that this is GREAT, but cool none-the-less.
|>2. Draw a profile of the alignment by clicking a couple of buttons. Edit the
|>profile any way imaginable by clicking a couple of buttons.
|>3. Grab the PI of the alignment and move it: EVERYTHING UPDATES. And I do
|>mean EVERYTHING.
|>4. No more fighting 15 different commands to get a shaded TIN view. It is
|>now a toggle. Click to change from contours, to TIN view to shaded relief
|>view.
|>There are probably 500 cool things like that in the new software.
|>AutoDesk is headed in the right direction, FINALLY!
|>
|>One more note: when you decide to upgrade don't think you will be up and
|>running in a few hours. This baby is HUGE. The next complaints are going to
|>come from people who will say it is too complicated.
|>One more thought: Skip LDD4. Even if you have to pay for something you never
|>received. It is really a bug filled version of LDD3.
|>Steve Cannon, you should burglarize a local engineering company to get a
|>copy. This is your kind of candy!
|>Tim