existing utilities (water & gas) how you doin' it?

[wallyman]

we tend to work on street projects w/ LOTS of existing utilities... the way im creating them is to:

1 create new dwg & data ref in the surface
2 lay the (dumb) line work from the topo out on the surface & turn it into a feature line
3 add verticies to said feature line via "insert elevation point " off off the featureline toolbar & place incrementaly every 50'....if i use intermediate gradebreaks (where the featurelin crosses a tin line) it creastes way way too many pipes..
4 paste the featureline to the surface - not addding more verticies (see above - no intermediate grade breaks)
5 lower the featureline the cover depth & 1/2 the pipe width (so if 4" pipe w/ a cover of 36" - drop it 38")
6 turn this now lowered featureline into a pipe network using create pipe network from objects...& then delete the null structures

this works - but takes time.. is there a better way?? - how are you doing it? - is anyone doing this?

thank you

chris

still on 2009..

[Anonymous]

That's basically how I do it if they are needed in profile or section view.
If they only need to show in plan I draft 2d polys & throw some line labels
on them.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[wallyman]

thanx for the reply!

...guess i'd better get back to work...

thank you

chris

[Sinc]

Are you talking about something like this? I actually have some improvements slated for that routine, but even in its current state, it works pretty well for certain things like that.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[jeff_rivers]

Where are you getting the elevation data for the existing utilities? From utility as-builts? Potholing? I'm reluctant to assume too much about utilities and where they may or may not be until they've been potholed. If you assume a consistent depth, do you worry about other users believing your pipe network is more accurate than it may actually be?

[wallyman]

well... for gas we assumed 36" below the ex ground to get to the top of the pipe. there are times that we have the utility company digout , or dig down to expose pipe in critical areas & then we shoot that (get elev.).

For ex storm or sanitary, if we have measure downs (inverts) from the field guys we'll use them as well as existing plans.

& yes i know its not exact ,but it updates (in our sections & profiles) when/if we get "better info"- or when we move our proposed utilities... & i'm not to worried that others will take the utilities as absolute correct - i mean we're doin best we can w/ info we have.. & I believe we have a disclamer stating thet the utils were put in by best avail records..


thanx,

-w

[dness]

We show all the existing on plan but for profile we show only areas of conflict on connections.

[petrocat]

After doing a fairly long project with multiple crossing and parallel utilities, I have settled on the following for the method we use for underground utilities that are not gravity flow (underground electric, telephone, gas, water) otherwise I use pipes as needed.
I make an alignment of the utility, sample a surface, layout a profile at the depth indicated by potholes/existing records/valve nuts, etc. (We label the quality of the SUE in a quick table for most projects based on ASCE standards A, B, C, D). Then I use corridors to model the utility for depiction in our sections, using marked points, as a separate baseline/region. That way I can have them labeled almost automatically in the sections. If additional info comes in on the utility, I can just edit the geometry of the alignment or profile. I find Pipe Networks to be clumsy at best when it comes to anything but gravity lines, which is exactly how I treated them in LDT.

Mark
C3D 2010
a really slow computer
with really bad graphics card
Window XP

[scottkent]

Hi Wallyman - Civil 3D 2011 will feature a little addition that should save you a little time with your workflow. When creating a Pipe Network from an entity, and you choose to use vertex elevations, you will be able to specify what part of the pipe will be placed at those elevations. The choices are outside top, crown, centerline, invert, and outside bottom.

Scott Kent P.E.
Autodesk, Inc.
Test Development Analyst/Rapid Response Engineer
AEC Division
Autodesk Civil 3D Product Information: http://www.autodesk.com/civil3d
Civil Engineering Community Portal: http://civilcommunity.autodesk.com

[wallyman]

Scott - very nice - thank you !

we have 2010 - but not pushed to the masses, yet... & prolly wait till 2011 gets released...& go to 2011..

thank you

w

[lissaucad]

We pot hole existing utilities for our County road reconstruction projects. What I normally do is do a pipe network with small pipes for each type of utility that has been pot holed. They can then be depicted and labeled in cross sections and profiles. Though a 2" steel pipe is much bigger than a fiber optic line, it isn't going to be noticed on cross sections and profiles. Most of the times I only make the pipes representing utilities 10ft long @ the pot holed to top of utility elevation. I center the 10ft length of utility on the profile or cross section line.
DJL
Boulder County Transportation

[BJ3DE]

I've created "dumb" pipe networks (2d for labeling of pipe and structures) for both existing and early, "sketch" design. They can be used with simple labels as the defaults. If inverts/pipe sizes and types aren't needed the process is quick. Then, if needed, these networks can be finished/updated with invert info and pipe types and sizes (with full labeling) for a "smarter" network.

Bill Johnson III

[Anonymous]

I do it with one tool that stores the profile on the orig 2d/3d pline with xrecords for easy editing later.
It asks you the surface, depth of cover desired, and the dialmeter, then samples the surface, weeds the profile based on
a tolerance it asks, updates a LDT/C3D alignment and profile, and sweeps a circle or square along the 3d pline to make a
pipe/conduit.
Its a custom tool though.

The point is that the built in C3D tools for utils are not suitable for real production, they have a long way to go to
meet basic needs of util designers. Sinc is on the right path and hopefully others push on Adesk to address these
simple needs.

wallyman <>
|>we tend to work on street projects w/ LOTS of existing utilities... the way im creating them is to:
|>
|>1 create new dwg & data ref in the surface
|>2 lay the (dumb) line work from the topo out on the surface & turn it into a feature line
|>3 add verticies to said feature line via "insert elevation point " off off the featureline toolbar & place incrementaly every 50'....if i use intermediate gradebreaks (where the featurelin crosses a tin line) it creastes way way too many pipes..
|>4 paste the featureline to the surface - not addding more verticies (see above - no intermediate grade breaks)
|>5 lower the featureline the cover depth & 1/2 the pipe width (so if 4" pipe w/ a cover of 36" - drop it 38")
|>6 turn this now lowered featureline into a pipe network using create pipe network from objects...& then delete the null structures
|>
|>this works - but takes time.. is there a better way?? - how are you doing it? - is anyone doing this?
|>
|>thank you
|>
|>chris
|>
|>still on 2009..
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - at - hunsaker - dotcom

[Anonymous]

I thought to post a screenshot of utils in 3d dwf I did using the tools we have.
The proposed surfaces were also made from the 3d breaklines the tools creates. No need for corridors and pipe networks
that fall apart when trying to share models with others.
The key is that my "enhanced feature line" tool allows vertical curves and handles offest alignments. Its still a lot
of work for detailed things like drainage local depressions, as are corridors.

James Maeding
|>I do it with one tool that stores the profile on the orig 2d/3d pline with xrecords for easy editing later.
|>It asks you the surface, depth of cover desired, and the dialmeter, then samples the surface, weeds the profile based on
|>a tolerance it asks, updates a LDT/C3D alignment and profile, and sweeps a circle or square along the 3d pline to make a
|>pipe/conduit.
|>Its a custom tool though.
|>
|>The point is that the built in C3D tools for utils are not suitable for real production, they have a long way to go to
|>meet basic needs of util designers. Sinc is on the right path and hopefully others push on Adesk to address these
|>simple needs.
|>
|>wallyman <>
|>|>we tend to work on street projects w/ LOTS of existing utilities... the way im creating them is to:
|>|>
|>|>1 create new dwg & data ref in the surface
|>|>2 lay the (dumb) line work from the topo out on the surface & turn it into a feature line
|>|>3 add verticies to said feature line via "insert elevation point " off off the featureline toolbar & place incrementaly every 50'....if i use intermediate gradebreaks (where the featurelin crosses a tin line) it creastes way way too many pipes..
|>|>4 paste the featureline to the surface - not addding more verticies (see above - no intermediate grade breaks)
|>|>5 lower the featureline the cover depth & 1/2 the pipe width (so if 4" pipe w/ a cover of 36" - drop it 38")
|>|>6 turn this now lowered featureline into a pipe network using create pipe network from objects...& then delete the null structures
|>|>
|>|>this works - but takes time.. is there a better way?? - how are you doing it? - is anyone doing this?
|>|>
|>|>thank you
|>|>
|>|>chris
|>|>
|>|>still on 2009..
|>James Maeding
|>Civil Engineer and Programmer
|>jmaeding - at - hunsaker - dotcom
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - at - hunsaker - dotcom

[jeff_rivers]

James Maeding said something like:
...and sweeps a circle or square along the 3d pline to make a pipe/conduit.



Interesting. I deal with overhead utilities occasionally, and your method is similar to a method I've come up with. Knowing that wires sag, I measure the elevations at each pole, draw a 3D Polyline from pole to pole at the correct height, then extrude a circle along the polyline. The circle is sized to the clearance distance required per utility, or, if no clearance necessary, the circle is sized to something easy to see without being so large it occludes other things.

Where it gets complicated is figuring the sag mid-span, and the change in sag due to temperature. There are tools available that can shoot a height from below fairly accurately, but the sag must still be accounted for.

There was a certain project where a field engineer for the local electric utility met me on-site and used his 30-foot surveyor's rod to tap on the powerlines and measure their height. That was interesting to see.

[Anonymous]

right, in the end, its us defining some routine to make the backbone 3d pline how we need.
AutoDesk clearly approached its pipe network thing by translating what LDT had, then adding some improvements.
They neglected to interview designers, it seems, when creating software for them, as they threw out the idea that the
profile grade breaks generally do not fall on horizontal change points. OOPS!
They also threw out the idea that pipes do not always intersect at the middle of structures, OOPS.
So that is why I cringe every time they say Civil3D and BIM in the same sentence. A too-simple model is of no use.
They were simply trying to please the people who stuck to LDT because of pipe features in it. But then they advertise
like its ready for the masses. That's not an honest thing to do IMO.

Jeff_Rivers <>
|>James Maeding said something like:

|>...and sweeps a circle or square along the 3d pline to make a pipe/conduit.

|>

|>

|>

|>Interesting. I deal with overhead utilities occasionally, and your method is similar to a method I've come up with. Knowing that wires sag, I measure the elevations at each pole, draw a 3D Polyline from pole to pole at the correct height, then extrude a circle along the polyline. The circle is sized to the clearance distance required per utility, or, if no clearance necessary, the circle is sized to something easy to see without being so large it occludes other things.

|>

|>Where it gets complicated is figuring the sag mid-span, and the change in sag due to temperature. There are tools available that can shoot a height from below fairly accurately, but the sag must still be accounted for.

|>

|>There was a certain project where a field engineer for the local electric utility met me on-site and used his 30-foot surveyor's rod to tap on the powerlines and measure their height. That was interesting to see.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - at - hunsaker - dotcom

[Neilw_05]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this approach but if so please point it out to me.

We can utilize a grading and the ability to project a feature line to a profile to create a pipe in profile that remains dynamic to any profile.

Here is the concept:
1) Create alignments from the pipe runs
2) For pipes that follow existing terrain, sample the existing ground surface. For graded pipes, layout a design profile for the pipe run.
3) Create a featureline from the alignment and apply the EG or Design profile
4) Create a grading from the feature line with near vertical slope using the relative elevation option. Set the relative elevation to be the depth of cover to the top of the pipe. For power lines the relative elevation can be in the positive direction.
5) Create another grading from the previous to represent the diameter of the pipe, ie. relative elevation =minus .667 for an 8 in. pipe.
6) Project the feature lines from the 2 gradings to the profile to get dynamic profiles of the pipe. In cases where the diameter varies, apply appropriate relative offsets along the grading for each pipe size.

Here is a screen recording showing the dynamic relationship.

http://screencast.com/t/NzIxOGQzZDM

[wallyman]

neilw - that is very cool! - thank you!!

i m not sure i can incorporate that into what im doing ... but that's cool!

-w

[Anonymous]

Regrettably it has it's limitations as do all workarounds. It's doesn't
project into cross sections or do pipe interference checks to mention a
couple of shortcomings.

Perhaps there will be better support for this need in the upcoming release.



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[buckdavis]

Thanks for all the great shares on here. I still can't believe there is not more interoperability with Revit and Navis, but really appreciate the shares here. 

BIMBOX STRYKER GTX i7 4.9Ghz 

Dual 1080 Ti 22G GPU 

64G DDR4 3600 RAM