When is 'easy design' too easy?

[C3D_RickGraham]

Hi all,

Last week I was showing an engineer the basics of Civil3D, showing him how
easy it is to generate plans. I did an alignment, profile and then generated
a simple FG from that. His comment was something to the effect of 'That
software is making it too easy and will introduce many errors' and then
proceeded to give me an ad nauseam history of his expertise. Having
dismissed that after realizing that I was showing him that he needs to get
with the program or get dusted, I was reflecting his original comment over
the weekend.

When IS easy design TOO easy? Afterall, from his side, he saw me 'push a few
buttons' and generated something that might have taken him hours to figure
out by calculator and sliderule (yes, he does have one of those). And it
might be fear of job security that he lashed out at me. But his comment is
still viable to ponder. What is the future of civil engineering when one has
to merely push a few buttons to get output? Yes there is the seal that goes
on the drawing to assure/assume that the drawing is correct. Will the fuure
PE tests involve a computer and ability to push a few buttons instead of
books? Will the 'ma and pa' shops pump out sub-par work because they are
pushing a few buttons versus some deep-thought and planning of a site? Can
the hand-calcs backup/verify when the the computer is generating? Or is is
it now vice-versa?

Just some 'Jack Handy' deep thoughts for a Monday morning.

Rick






--
Rick

C3D 2007 SP3
Dell DuoCore 2.66GHz 2GB Ram 256 Dual DVI Dual monitors! 🙂

[Anonymous]

I think it's a non-issue. As with anything, it will be what you make it.
If you hand a kid a computer with great software, and never review his work
or teach him anything, then yes, it's going to be a bad product. With
proper oversight, it will only make the design better and the final product
easier to produce.

I wonder if he would like to go back to manually recorded survey notes,
manually reduced and plotted. This would certainly ensure that noone has
pressed the wrong button, etc. (It would leave the issue of transposed
numbers, etc.) Why do in two hours what you could spend a week doing?
That's absurd, I'm sure he'd agree. Surveying has benefitted tremendously
from the thechnology. It doesn't mean that we just press a couple of
buttons. There are still problems that arise and things still need to be
checked, verified, corrected, etc. It can be done much quicker, now,
though.

Volume calcs are a good thing to consider for this discussion, too. Anyone
who is 'pressing the buttons' to get volumes without competent people doing
it and/or verifying by sections or other methods is just asking for trouble.

It's all the same situation, really. It speeds up the process, but it
doesn't negate the need for qualified people to be doing/reviewing the work.
Design is no different, though some may take an ego hit over that.

wrote in message news:5443844@discussion.autodesk.com...

When IS easy design TOO easy? Afterall, from his side, he saw me 'push a few
buttons' and generated something that might have taken him hours to figure
out by calculator and sliderule (yes, he does have one of those). And it
might be fear of job security that he lashed out at me. But his comment is
still viable to ponder. What is the future of civil engineering when one has
to merely push a few buttons to get output? Yes there is the seal that goes
on the drawing to assure/assume that the drawing is correct. Will the fuure
PE tests involve a computer and ability to push a few buttons instead of
books? Will the 'ma and pa' shops pump out sub-par work because they are
pushing a few buttons versus some deep-thought and planning of a site? Can
the hand-calcs backup/verify when the the computer is generating? Or is is
it now vice-versa?

[Anonymous]

I think that the software makes it easier to catch mistakes. Doing grading
by hand it is always easy to flub an elevation by punching in a number
incorrectly. Of course you can do that in the software also. But since you
can look at what you're drawing in 3D and easily check the grade and
elevation. Catching errors is much easier.

The program is there to make it easier to produce plans quickly and
correctly. Thus helping with the profit margin. Programs are tools. Just
like calculators and sliderules. And you can make mistakes in either. The
people who take care in their work and/or are properly managed. Will turn
out good work. Those that don't/aren't will turn out bad work.

I started working in the field as a rod-man for a Surveying and Civil
Engineering firm 23 years ago. I did layout and Topo with a Transit, steel
tape and 25' leveling rod. We used a Wild T1 and an HP 3800 Distomat for
traverse.

It was a "ma and pa" shop so the field crew was expected to do a lot of the
office work too.We had a couple of HP 29C calculators and a Wang
programmable calculator hooked up to an IBM Selectric typewriter as a
printer. All plotting, contour interpolation and drafting was done by hand.
I was lucky. The boss took time to teach us the background of what we were
doing. And he was very in favor of Technology. As soon as the business could
afford it. We had IBM AT's (286's) with a program that would plot points on
to tractor feed paper in a dot matrix printer. Soon after that we got a
program that would plot simple drawings and points through a widow shade
plotter using technical pens. Then came drafting program and then Autocad.
Unfortunately that was just before the housing slump. So they let everyone
not in the family go.

The point off all this is that these were just tools. Tools that would let
you get the work done faster. But just tools none the less.

People might say that housed aren't built like they used to be. But is that
because the carpenters use battery powered saws and nail guns or is it
because they are rushed to get it done as quickly and as cheaply as
possible?

The same goes for Surveying and Civil Engineering. There have always been
shops that would just slap a set of plans together without checking for
mistakes. There have always been shops that take the time to make sure the
produce they put out is the best it can bee. If the software makes it easier
to do this quickly and produces plans that are correct and look good Well
that's all for the better.

I don't think that anything is really near the push button stage. It might
look like it is when you watch someone with enough experience that they can
whip through the menus and make the proper choices the first time. But it
takes experience with the program to make it produce what you want. It takes
experience with Engineering to use the program to produce something that can
not only be built but will produce the best results in a economic manner.
There is still a lot of Art in Engineering. And Survey analysis will always
be an Art.

There will still be shops that turn out bad work because they either don't
know any better or are too greedy to take the time to do it right or to
train their people how to do it right. I don't think a lot of the
technicians get enough training in the software. Let alone the background of
what they are doing. But this is not the fault of the programs. It is the
fault of the people who should be training them. Too many people HAVE gotten
the idea that because they have a program that will do the math. They don't
have people trained in how to do the math to produce the work. I the person
running the program doesn't have any idea of what the result should be or
what it is based on. How can the know if something has gone wrong in the
design. If no one checks the design then it is just as case of GIGO.

Well enough pondering for a Monday morning. Time to punch keys and let the
program do the work. ; )

Allen


wrote in message news:5443844@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi all,

Last week I was showing an engineer the basics of Civil3D, showing him how
easy it is to generate plans. I did an alignment, profile and then generated
a simple FG from that. His comment was something to the effect of 'That
software is making it too easy and will introduce many errors' and then
proceeded to give me an ad nauseam history of his expertise. Having
dismissed that after realizing that I was showing him that he needs to get
with the program or get dusted, I was reflecting his original comment over
the weekend.

When IS easy design TOO easy? Afterall, from his side, he saw me 'push a few
buttons' and generated something that might have taken him hours to figure
out by calculator and sliderule (yes, he does have one of those). And it
might be fear of job security that he lashed out at me. But his comment is
still viable to ponder. What is the future of civil engineering when one has
to merely push a few buttons to get output? Yes there is the seal that goes
on the drawing to assure/assume that the drawing is correct. Will the fuure
PE tests involve a computer and ability to push a few buttons instead of
books? Will the 'ma and pa' shops pump out sub-par work because they are
pushing a few buttons versus some deep-thought and planning of a site? Can
the hand-calcs backup/verify when the the computer is generating? Or is is
it now vice-versa?

Just some 'Jack Handy' deep thoughts for a Monday morning.

Rick






--
Rick

C3D 2007 SP3
Dell DuoCore 2.66GHz 2GB Ram 256 Dual DVI Dual monitors! 🙂

[Anonymous]

I *think* he/she means that the software makes it very easy to create a
design without knowing what you're doing. That is certainly true - you can
make a bad design with Civil 3D just as easily as you could make a good
design if you don't know what you're doing. However, I heard the same
argument against LDD back in the day - I think Civil 3D is a significant
improvement in this area. In many firms (not the one I currently work for)
InRoads and LDD have historically been used by younger engineers because
the more senior folks were either not interested (ie: FUD) or lacked the
aptitude. This means that the more experienced folks are farther removed
from the actual design and end up performing "design by proxy". Civil 3D,
on the other hand, is leaps and bounds easier to learn, IMHO at least.
Because it is more approachable, it much more likely now that the design
software will end up in the hands of a more experienced engineer.

There is "deep thought" and "planning out a site" and then there is
"spending a lot of time on a design". The two are not the same thing.
Civil 3D does not do any "design" for you, it just relieves the engineer
from doing a lot of repetative drafting tasks in order to revise a design.

Jon Rizzo
Langan Engineering and Environmental Services, Inc.




wrote in message news:5443844@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi all,

Last week I was showing an engineer the basics of Civil3D, showing him how
easy it is to generate plans. I did an alignment, profile and then generated
a simple FG from that. His comment was something to the effect of 'That
software is making it too easy and will introduce many errors' and then
proceeded to give me an ad nauseam history of his expertise. Having
dismissed that after realizing that I was showing him that he needs to get
with the program or get dusted, I was reflecting his original comment over
the weekend.

When IS easy design TOO easy? Afterall, from his side, he saw me 'push a few
buttons' and generated something that might have taken him hours to figure
out by calculator and sliderule (yes, he does have one of those). And it
might be fear of job security that he lashed out at me. But his comment is
still viable to ponder. What is the future of civil engineering when one has
to merely push a few buttons to get output? Yes there is the seal that goes
on the drawing to assure/assume that the drawing is correct. Will the fuure
PE tests involve a computer and ability to push a few buttons instead of
books? Will the 'ma and pa' shops pump out sub-par work because they are
pushing a few buttons versus some deep-thought and planning of a site? Can
the hand-calcs backup/verify when the the computer is generating? Or is is
it now vice-versa?

Just some 'Jack Handy' deep thoughts for a Monday morning.

Rick






--
Rick

C3D 2007 SP3
Dell DuoCore 2.66GHz 2GB Ram 256 Dual DVI Dual monitors! 🙂

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, since this program is so "easy" to get "answers" we have
people using this that have no clue on what kind of answers to look for.
Case in point not too weeks ago, "Is the volume in square feet or cubic
yards?". I am paraphasing here but you can get my drift. I suppose this
goes for any software, though.

Bill

[acoursen]

That argument/comment seems to get recycled every few years with the advent/main-streaming of increasingly advanced technologies. Pretty much heard the same thing when GPS started being used. It is only a tool. In the end I think that this program ups the ante when it comes to the actual design engineer designing and drafting. The old school paradigm of redline->rote draft->redline revise->rote draft etc. is coming to an end. Some who still follow that scenario (and I think it is still pretty prevalent) would take a look at what Civil3D can do and be kind of scared--will it now put too much design control in the wrong hands? Shame on them if they let it get to this.

That engineer should realize it is easy for his benefit, not just the draftsman. As an engineer and surveyor I use that power everyday in my design functions. I don't need a draftsman anymore since it is becoming increasingly built into the design functionality. I would think that some old school engineers/draftsman would look at that as a threat. Your question regarding 'ma and pa' shops potentially putting out sub-par work is not particularly valid because sub-par work is in any size shop. Working in a shop with two engineers only, our level of detail rivals any firm of any size. And as the engineer/designer/draftsman (secretary, janitor, etc.) the ease of the program is a huge benefit.

Andy Coursen PE & LS
Civil3D SP3

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately a lot of the Engineers I know are more managers than
Engineers. They "Manage" a project. They "Coordinate" with clients and subs.
They "review" work.

The actual design IS done they the younger CAD techs. But it is not the
fault of the software if the Techs are not given the training in design (or
the software) that they need.

A good case in point happened when I was asked to help out in another
department. A young EIT was working on a culvert replacement. He wanted to
know how to coordinate the baseline on the intersecting road so that it
could be used for stakeout since the baseline of the project was in the
stream.

I started looking at the baseline that had been drawn. It had some weird
angels in it and the cures weren't tangent. I asked how it had been created
and was told the Engineer had given it to him. To make a long story short.
After a lot of questioning I found out he Engineer had given him a plot with
the lines and curves sketched on it. The EIT had then used the Line and Arc
command to eyeball the baseline into the drawing. I then showed him how to
do it properly.

Another Engineer in the same Dept. moved everything in the drawing EXCEPT
the traverse (so it would FIT in the border). Then gave stakeout from the
traverse. Luckily the Surveyor doing the stakeout realized something was
wrong.

None of this is the fault of the programs. PEOPLE are in charge of making
sure things are done right. In the past a draftsman/designer may have had to
know the formula for calculating a vertical curve. But it was still the job
of someone to make sure he was applying in correctly and following the
criteria. It still SHOULD be someone's job. And if it isn't there lies the
fault.

Allen

"Jon Rizzo" wrote in message
news:5443904@discussion.autodesk.com...
I *think* he/she means that the software makes it very easy to create a
design without knowing what you're doing. That is certainly true - you can
make a bad design with Civil 3D just as easily as you could make a good
design if you don't know what you're doing. However, I heard the same
argument against LDD back in the day - I think Civil 3D is a significant
improvement in this area. In many firms (not the one I currently work for)
InRoads and LDD have historically been used by younger engineers because
the more senior folks were either not interested (ie: FUD) or lacked the
aptitude. This means that the more experienced folks are farther removed
from the actual design and end up performing "design by proxy". Civil 3D,
on the other hand, is leaps and bounds easier to learn, IMHO at least.
Because it is more approachable, it much more likely now that the design
software will end up in the hands of a more experienced engineer.

There is "deep thought" and "planning out a site" and then there is
"spending a lot of time on a design". The two are not the same thing.
Civil 3D does not do any "design" for you, it just relieves the engineer
from doing a lot of repetative drafting tasks in order to revise a design.

Jon Rizzo
Langan Engineering and Environmental Services, Inc.




wrote in message news:5443844@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi all,

Last week I was showing an engineer the basics of Civil3D, showing him how
easy it is to generate plans. I did an alignment, profile and then generated
a simple FG from that. His comment was something to the effect of 'That
software is making it too easy and will introduce many errors' and then
proceeded to give me an ad nauseam history of his expertise. Having
dismissed that after realizing that I was showing him that he needs to get
with the program or get dusted, I was reflecting his original comment over
the weekend.

When IS easy design TOO easy? Afterall, from his side, he saw me 'push a few
buttons' and generated something that might have taken him hours to figure
out by calculator and sliderule (yes, he does have one of those). And it
might be fear of job security that he lashed out at me. But his comment is
still viable to ponder. What is the future of civil engineering when one has
to merely push a few buttons to get output? Yes there is the seal that goes
on the drawing to assure/assume that the drawing is correct. Will the fuure
PE tests involve a computer and ability to push a few buttons instead of
books? Will the 'ma and pa' shops pump out sub-par work because they are
pushing a few buttons versus some deep-thought and planning of a site? Can
the hand-calcs backup/verify when the the computer is generating? Or is is
it now vice-versa?

Just some 'Jack Handy' deep thoughts for a Monday morning.

Rick






--
Rick

C3D 2007 SP3
Dell DuoCore 2.66GHz 2GB Ram 256 Dual DVI Dual monitors! 🙂

[C3D_RickGraham]

Thanks, I was trying to be rhetorical without being specific as some of what
I mention has happened on other DG in the AutoCAD groups. 'Nuff said or
email me offline on that issue.

Rick

Your question regarding 'ma and pa' shops potentially putting out sub-par
work is not particularly valid because sub-par work is in any size shop.
Working in a shop with two engineers only, our level of detail rivals any
firm of any size. And as the engineer/designer/draftsman (secretary,
janitor, etc.) the ease of the program is a huge benefit.

Andy Coursen PE & LS
Civil3D SP3

[acoursen]

'Nuff said.

[Anonymous]

great examples, Allen (and Bill). That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Jon




"Allen Jessup" wrote in message
news:5444031@discussion.autodesk.com...
Unfortunately a lot of the Engineers I know are more managers than
Engineers. They "Manage" a project. They "Coordinate" with clients and subs.
They "review" work.

The actual design IS done they the younger CAD techs. But it is not the
fault of the software if the Techs are not given the training in design (or
the software) that they need.

A good case in point happened when I was asked to help out in another
department. A young EIT was working on a culvert replacement. He wanted to
know how to coordinate the baseline on the intersecting road so that it
could be used for stakeout since the baseline of the project was in the
stream.

I started looking at the baseline that had been drawn. It had some weird
angels in it and the cures weren't tangent. I asked how it had been created
and was told the Engineer had given it to him. To make a long story short.
After a lot of questioning I found out he Engineer had given him a plot with
the lines and curves sketched on it. The EIT had then used the Line and Arc
command to eyeball the baseline into the drawing. I then showed him how to
do it properly.

Another Engineer in the same Dept. moved everything in the drawing EXCEPT
the traverse (so it would FIT in the border). Then gave stakeout from the
traverse. Luckily the Surveyor doing the stakeout realized something was
wrong.

None of this is the fault of the programs. PEOPLE are in charge of making
sure things are done right. In the past a draftsman/designer may have had to
know the formula for calculating a vertical curve. But it was still the job
of someone to make sure he was applying in correctly and following the
criteria. It still SHOULD be someone's job. And if it isn't there lies the
fault.

Allen

"Jon Rizzo" wrote in message
news:5443904@discussion.autodesk.com...
I *think* he/she means that the software makes it very easy to create a
design without knowing what you're doing. That is certainly true - you can
make a bad design with Civil 3D just as easily as you could make a good
design if you don't know what you're doing. However, I heard the same
argument against LDD back in the day - I think Civil 3D is a significant
improvement in this area. In many firms (not the one I currently work for)
InRoads and LDD have historically been used by younger engineers because
the more senior folks were either not interested (ie: FUD) or lacked the
aptitude. This means that the more experienced folks are farther removed
from the actual design and end up performing "design by proxy". Civil 3D,
on the other hand, is leaps and bounds easier to learn, IMHO at least.
Because it is more approachable, it much more likely now that the design
software will end up in the hands of a more experienced engineer.

There is "deep thought" and "planning out a site" and then there is
"spending a lot of time on a design". The two are not the same thing.
Civil 3D does not do any "design" for you, it just relieves the engineer
from doing a lot of repetative drafting tasks in order to revise a design.

Jon Rizzo
Langan Engineering and Environmental Services, Inc.




wrote in message news:5443844@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi all,

Last week I was showing an engineer the basics of Civil3D, showing him how
easy it is to generate plans. I did an alignment, profile and then generated
a simple FG from that. His comment was something to the effect of 'That
software is making it too easy and will introduce many errors' and then
proceeded to give me an ad nauseam history of his expertise. Having
dismissed that after realizing that I was showing him that he needs to get
with the program or get dusted, I was reflecting his original comment over
the weekend.

When IS easy design TOO easy? Afterall, from his side, he saw me 'push a few
buttons' and generated something that might have taken him hours to figure
out by calculator and sliderule (yes, he does have one of those). And it
might be fear of job security that he lashed out at me. But his comment is
still viable to ponder. What is the future of civil engineering when one has
to merely push a few buttons to get output? Yes there is the seal that goes
on the drawing to assure/assume that the drawing is correct. Will the fuure
PE tests involve a computer and ability to push a few buttons instead of
books? Will the 'ma and pa' shops pump out sub-par work because they are
pushing a few buttons versus some deep-thought and planning of a site? Can
the hand-calcs backup/verify when the the computer is generating? Or is is
it now vice-versa?

Just some 'Jack Handy' deep thoughts for a Monday morning.

Rick






--
Rick

C3D 2007 SP3
Dell DuoCore 2.66GHz 2GB Ram 256 Dual DVI Dual monitors! 🙂