What is the Best way to Design/Layout Pressurized Piping (FMs & WLs)...

[bryancollins3174]

What is the Best way to Design/Layout Pressurized Piping (FMs & WLs) for Plan and Profile?

Has anyone seen a complete How To on the best way to design and layout pressurized piping (plan and profile) for any size project? I'm working on a small project now and hoping to get clear understanding of how to do this because I have 40+ miles of Forcemain and Gravity Sewer coming up shortly and I would like to be able to fully know how to do this so I can be best prepared. Best to learn on the small jobs if possible.

I've seen articles on the net here and there, but they seemed to be in pieces. Pressurized piping doesn't seem to get addressed to much when it comes to Civil 3D, but I know plenty of people are still left in the dark on how to deal with them in an effecient manner. Video(s) would be great if they are out there somewhere.

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and effort.

Bryan Collins (Cadd Technician)
Program: Civil 3D 2010 w/ SP2
OS: Windows XP Pro w/ SP3 using 3g switch

[Anonymous]

40 miles? Wow! That kinda depends on what you expect the software to
get you when it comes to pressure pipe.

Many people deal with them as they have in the past - plain linework
w/featureline draped onto surface and dropped by a depth. Fitting and
structures are just blocks.

Others have expanded their pipe networks to include fittings and the like.

Matthew Anderson, PE



bryancollins3174 wrote:
> What is the Best way to Design/Layout Pressurized Piping (FMs & WLs) for Plan and Profile?
>
> Has anyone seen a complete How To on the best way to design and layout pressurized piping (plan and profile) for any size project? I'm working on a small project now and hoping to get clear understanding of how to do this because I have 40+ miles of Forcemain and Gravity Sewer coming up shortly and I would like to be able to fully know how to do this so I can be best prepared. Best to learn on the small jobs if possible.
>
> I've seen articles on the net here and there, but they seemed to be in pieces. Pressurized piping doesn't seem to get addressed to much when it comes to Civil 3D, but I know plenty of people are still left in the dark on how to deal with them in an effecient manner. Video(s) would be great if they are out there somewhere.
>
> Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and effort.
>
> Bryan Collins (Cadd Technician)
> Program: Civil 3D 2010 w/ SP2
> OS: Windows XP Pro w/ SP3 using 3g switch
>

[USGRAM]

For buried pressurised piping, depth of cover and side support plays a significant role. However, as far as C3D is concerned, all you need to make sure is that you maintain the minimum depth of cover above the pipe.
When you show that on the drawing, as "minimum cover xx-ft", it is left to the contractor to maintain that and go deeper if required based on the field conditions.
If the pipeline is laid under a proposed street, it is very easy to design the pipeline, because, you can just follow the alignment and offset to the top of pipe from the alignment FG.
However, if the pipeline is lets say on the ROW of the company that owns it, I would set up rules using the EG surface as the target reference for the depth of cover.

[bryancollins3174]

Matt,

I've tried the straight draping the feature line on the surface and lowering elevation, but I haven't had it drape correctly yet...it just busts through the existing grade. I'm not sure if there is some issue with C3D and feature lines crossing other feature lines or 3d polylines or breaklines that I'm not aware of. Is there such an issue?

For example existing surface spikes 15 ft in the air for 50 feet horizontal distance near a RR, but when I created a feature line from my original polyline and checked to attach elevations from surface when it projected to the profile it cut right through the large hump...didn't come close to trying to follow the grade and did the same when going through ditches, roads, and wetlands.

I'm hoping you can set me straight because I'm sure I'm doing something majorly wrong.

Bryan

[Civil3DReminders_com]

Sounds like you didn't sample intermediate points when sampling the surface, its the check mark on the dialog box where you select the surface.

Christopher

[Neilw_05]

While draping a line and lowering it to minimum depth will get you a profile, do you need to consider maximum pipe deflection in vertical as well? Large pipes will require constraints on the vertical profile due to deflection limitations. In that case you will need to define a layout profile with minumum vertical curves derived from maximum pipe deflection constraints. Edited by: Neilw on Feb 3, 2010 12:53 AM

[Anonymous]

I don't doubt - but here in illinois - I don't worry too much about
that... 😉

Matthew Anderson, PE



Neilw wrote:
> While draping a line and lowering it to minimum depth will get you a profile, do you need to consider maximum pipe deflection in vertical as well? Large pipes will require constraints on the vertical profile due to deflection limitations. In that case you will need to define a layout profile with minumum vertical curves derived from maximum pipe deflection constraints.
>
> Edited by: Neilw on Feb 3, 2010 12:53 AM
>

[Anonymous]

Just to add to Christopher's post, with 40 miles of pipe you will want to
weed that feature line real good before creating the network. You will get a
structure at every node on the feature line. You can use a quick profile of
the feature line (or object projection if a profile exists. 😉 & the FG to
preview & fine tune the cover after weeding.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[bryancollins3174]

Its been mentioned to me by several people that Sampling the Intermediate points could get you into a world of trouble...now what they consider trouble I don't know. I was just told to always keep that checkbox unchecked. But from what you're saying it sounds like I will need to use those points to get a precise feature line profile. Say I do this is it best to weed out the points or to just go back and create a layout profile using said feature line as a guide? Sounds alot like what I did with LDT. Copy existing grade down 3 or 4 ft, straighten it out and add bends where needed and once satisfied I'd copy the new line down to complete the width of pipe.

Now if I want to use Pipe Networks then when dropping the elevations down I need to consider depth to centerline of pipe correct? Not to the top like what I did with LDT? So far I haven't had much luck with my Pipe Networks, but my company seems to want to use them so I guess I have to work them into this scenerio at some point.

And Matt, I'm like you I don't think I've ever considered vertical curves for pipe deflection in profiles, not even for directional boring, just deg bends in the pipe.

Thanks everyone for your help. If you think of something else or you run across any videos and/or presentations/presentation materials please let me know.

Bryan Collins (Cadd Technician)

[dasindog]

I am still trying to figure out if I want to use this workflow but select sample intermediate points and then weed the featureline to get something a little more manageable. If you don't use that then the feature line won't be accurate enough to be of any use.

[t_mckenzie]

Our companies method seems to work well (at least for us). When we are creating municipal projects for water/force mains we have a different setup than for subdivision work. With your upcoming project being 40+ miles, I would think it is more of a municipal type project (even if the line is a private line).

We create an alignment as required for the project and a profile using the proposed vertical alignment tools (profile by layout). For our bends, hydrants, tees, and other appurtenances, we use structures. Our structure styles are just blocks (in plan view) for the appropriate apputenance and a aecc_tick in profile view. The reason we use this is for labeling (in plan and profile view). If your alignment changes the structures will still be in the right location. The purpose of using the profile by layout tool instead of just a poly line is that it is easier for most of our users to modify that when alignment changes occur than it is to modify a polyline.

I'm sure it's not the best way, but I like it a lot.

-Tucker

[bryancollins3174]

Tucker,

For structures to show in both plan and profile does that mean you are using the Pipe Networks or manually placing them in the profile? Or is there a way to project structures as well as Feature Lines to a profile? And if there is a way does the structure automatically change to a tick mark or is there something like a swap part that you have to do?

Bryan

[t_mckenzie]

We are using the pipe network tools to have them placed in the profile. You still have to manually drag the ticks to the desired depth but it is much quicker than having to place blocks manually and it is dynamic in the aspect of placing it at the correct station (not dynamic vertically however). I am sure you can setup rules to make it come in at predetermined depths, but I am not too familiar with the rules and how to use them.

-Tucker

[MSBryan]

Bryan,

This helped me get started with a waterline project last year. I had never done a plan and profile for FM's or WL's either. This had some good concepts and procedures that helped tremendously. The only thing that C3D doesn't have a good answer for me is how to represent bends for directional drill pipe. We just did those "by hand"

You may have to sign up for the AU website to view this.

Getting the Most of Piping in AutoCAD® Civil 3D® 2009

[http://au.autodesk.com/?nd=class&session_id=3015]

MSB

[peter_thomson]

I did a wee video on how to do this.
You will find it here...
http://bimontherocks.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/01/using-a-pipe-network-tools-to-create-a-rising-main.html

We use our own structure style for pipe changes in grade which is a block that is a vertical line on a no-plot layer, but the actual object is based on a std manhole and it reacts the same way as a manhole with a sump depth of zero. This way you can get a depth to invert data band off the structure (rim - sump) and it positions itself automatically on creation with the correct rules.

It is pretty easy to copy that "part" and alter the styles (blocks) in 2D and 3D so that you can set up your force-main just as pipes with joints and then swap parts for air valves and the like.

Look at the video. It is the rules that set the scene for getting the pipes to respect min cover but still follow the ground.

Hope that helps.

cheers,
Peter

[bryancollins3174]

Thanks Peter. I would love to be able to look at videos like this at work where I actually use the software, but unfortunately our IT staff blocks youtube and most all streaming video sites so I'll be sure to check out the video this weekend at home. MSBryan, I do have a subscription so I will be able to checkout the AU website session you mentioned. And I will be printing out this entire thread so I can start keeping running notes on the subject matter.

Thanks for everything everyone. You all are so knowledgeable and helpful. Please keep giving us all ideas. So far I believe this is the most information on this subject matter I've come across in any one post.

Bryan Collins (Cadd Technician)

[bryancollins3174]

I'm still trying to work my way through designing Pressurized Piping and now I've run into another snag. There seems to be a 75 vertices limit on converting Polylines and/or Feature Lines to a Pipe Network. I would like to know how others have gotten around this limitation with long runs. I'm almost to the point that Pipe Networks is the worst way to go and that drawing it all manually is the way to proceed.

Any suggestions.

Bryan Collins (Cadd Technician)

[peter_thomson]

I am still wondering if that system is the best way to go.

If you decide to use pipes, use pipes but from pre-cooked networks that exist in the drawing template.

Foe these long runs that folk need to do, if converting to pipes is a problem, then just use alignments and profiles.
Be clever and use a pipe networks for your crossing pipes.
Creat a new surface, paste EG into it and lower it by the min cover plus the wall thickness plus the internal dia.
Sample it on a no-plot layer on the PV.
Design your invert line to not go above the sampled line.
Create a band set that makes the PV look like a pipe PV..
When you are finished, copy the invert line up by the diameter and your PV looks like a pipe PV.

You don't get a pipe schedule, but how hard is that to work out?
At least it's efficient.
Example attached...

Peter