Unnecessary layers...

[deltacoolguy]

Unnecessary layers...

This is probably more of a vent, as I believe there is no perfect solution.  At least what would be perfect in my mind.

Anyway, I hate having unused layers.  I hate having to scroll through pages and pages of layers in the layer dialog box whenever I want to do something.  It slows me down.  I prefer to have my drawings "clean", and have layers that are only actually being used at the moment.

I could easily do this in Land Desktop by purging unused layers, but C3D will not allow this as so many layers are theoretically being 'used' by various styles even though they're not really being used.

Layer filters can help some, but only to a small degree.  Does anybody else share my frustration in this area?  If so, have you found any solutions?

Thanks.

[pendean]

Layer Filters can be used to only show you 'in use' layers: we do that by defaulyt all the time in all of our files. How is that not working for you?

PURGE (only gets rid of truly unused layers so if any remain they are being used), LAYDEL (lethal solution as it will delete content you may not see) or LAYMRG (safest if you merge with Layer 0) commands are other options.

[rl_jackson]

This is exactly why I don't use the NCS Imperial Template, personally it's more convusing than it's worth, or it had to teach an old dog new tricks. I set a lot of things in styles to Layer 0 and control it via import (description keys or figures). I even have all of my layer settings as Layer 0, just find it easier to work with C3D that way.

[AllenJessup]

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@deltacoolguy wrote:

 

C3D will not allow this as so many layers are theoretically being 'used' by various styles even though they're not really being used.

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Unfortunately that's not correct. They actually are in use. Just like the layers in a block that is defined in the drawing even if the block isn't inserted. And just like in the case of a block. The styles would have to be purged before the layers can be purged. Manage Tab > Styles Panel > Purge.

Allen Jessup

[Jeff_M]

Adding on to Allen's thoughts....just like blocks, you can define your styles to use only Layer 0 and assign the components to use hardcoded colors. Personally, I far prefer just allowing the layers to exist. I used to try to keep my drawings 'clean', back in LDT I had a purge layers lisp that I ran quite often. I no longer worry about it and manage my layer display with the Filters.

[jmayo-EE]

I'm starting to dig into a company's template that has 987 layers. When I set up a filter in an empty file and tell it to show the used layers, every layer appears...so if they xref 3 files users are wading through about 4000 layers....90% of them empty...

I share to OP's fustration.

I have been using the layer zero trick for about 7 yrs and I like it a lot better.

[AllenJessup]

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@jfmayo wrote:

I have been using the layer zero trick for about 7 yrs and I like it a lot better.

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That does sound interesting. I don't think I'm ready to recreate our templates though. I use the Filters, as Jeff does, to limit the number displayed.

Allen

[Neilw_05]

The style paradigm in C3D is much to blame for this type of bloat. Using Layer 0 can help a lot for some types of objects but not all. For example a surface has several  components that we may need to show or not show depending on our needs. If you put all of those components on layer 0 then you can't control their display or symbology via the layer manager. Thus we have to include layers in each style (i.e.. show triangles or not). When we embed layers in a style and then have to make several variations of that style we end up with layers embedded all over the place.

I think a partial solution would be to have the ability to toggle the display of the various components in an object on or off without having to resort to using styles. That way a single style could be used to display the object in many ways. This leads to me to ask you Jeff, do you have the ability to create some type of interface that could do this?

[Neilw_05]

I forgot to mention another functionality that would be needed in your utility Jeff. That would be the ability to change certain parameters within the style via your interface.such as contour or station intervals.

[AllenJessup]

Neil,

I find the quickest way for me to "toggle" between the display of different components is to use Quick Properties. I have it set to open in a static position near the upper right of my screen.

So if I have a Surface that has the Border Only style set and I want to see triangle. I select the border, the Quick Properties dialog appears, I drop down the Styles list and pick Triangles Only then Esc to deselect. I can actually do it much faster that typing it out took.

Not to say that I don't agree with you that there should be a better way. I'm all for anything Jeff could do. I'm a customer and intend to remain so.

Allen

[Neilw_05]

Actually we need to adjust the parameters on an object by object basis so that two objects with the same style could have different parameters.

[rl_jackson]

Using the Layer 0 makes it easier to learn C3D IMO, there's even a whitepaper on it done by Advanced Technology Solutions. Very good reading.

[Neilw_05]

I do use that technique as well Allen. My point is you have to create multiple styles to do that and each of those styles has layers embedded in them. So imagine that instead of changing the style you just toggle the components within the object itself.

I doubt this is possible as it would require that the objects have the innate ability to be controlled that way, but maybe it is.

[Jeff_M]

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@Neilw wrote:
Actually we need to adjust the parameters on an object by object basis so that two objects with the same style could have different parameters.

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How would this be better than 2 styles showing what is needed, Neil? BTW, there is no way, currently, that I am aware of, to do what you suggest. Just curious how/why this could/would be used in lieu of 2 styles.

[Neilw_05]

Let's use a surface as a case. We want the contours to be certain colors and linetype and the triangles another. If we put them all on layer 0 then they will all inherit the symbology of the layer we put the surface on. We could set the symbology to ByBlock but again the triangles and contours would look the same. So let's say we set the color and linetype symbology in the style using layer 0. That solves the many layers problem and the symbology problem but we still have to make multiple styles to control the display of the components. That in turn leads to standards management problems since we would have to edit each of those styles to suit different standards.

Now if we could control the display of the components on an object level then we could use one style to display it in all possible variations and eliminate all the replication.

[AllenJessup]

Jeff,

If we were talking about a situation where it's - For this customer we need things displayed this way. Or - At this point in the design process we want to have things displayed that way. Could something like you Point Group Display Manager work?

You could save a Display Group for each customer and a Display Group for things like Surface Editing, Corridor Editing or whatever you want to edit. Also one for Design Review Plot or however you want things plotted at certain stages. That way you wouldn't have to change the style for each component. You could restore one saves Style Group and be done. Just a thought.

Allen

[Jeff_M]

I'm having a hard time following you, Neil. It sounds to me like trying to manage the display of 1style would be far more problematic than managing mulitiple styles. And far more difficult to enforce standards.

Allen, interesting concept. I would have to sleep on that one.

[Neilw_05]

It could still be used to enforce standards. You would just embed layers within the style as needed. By using component toggles you eliminate the need for replication. So the style controls layers, the toggles control component display and parameters. The same style could show a surface with 1' & 5' contours or 2' and 10' contours. No need to make 2 styles. That would help with standards management in my mind. There would need to be a way select by filters and reset to defaults if it was desired to synchronize certain objects.

Again I doubt the software is capable of this.

[troma]

I think parent and child styles would be good. Then, for your example Neil, the parent would control visible/invisible, ByLayer/ByBlock settings etc, and the children could control the contour interval.