UCS - Unnecessary Crap Syndrome

[WIZNICKARTS]

I launched this topic to resolve a bit of debate around my office. I have been using DVIEW with the twist option to rotate views and viewports for years. As of late we receive drawings more frequently with the UCS rotated in the viewports and UCSFOLLOW set to 1 to match the geometry to a locked viewport. The problem with this is that every time you rotate the UCS all the coordinates will label wrong unless you can remember to set it to world before labeling. I have a strong objection to anyone rotating the UCS just to twist a viewport when DVIEW and TWIST can accomplish the same thing without ever affecting the coordinates in any way. I brought this up to one of our offending techs and was told in so many words that I was the idiot and that everyone twisted viewports with the ucs. To assume that we should all remember to set our UCS to world before labeling coordinates (as though it were as common as tying your shoes in the morning) is dead wrong. My wish is for everyone to weigh in pros and cons as to how they do it so I can convince these people to stop this Unnecessary Crap Syndrome. The UCS command has many great uses but destroying coordinate systems for the sake of twisting a view shouldn't be one of them. Agree or Disagree?  

[shaneelliss]

I agree with OP. Dview and Twist should be used to rotate viewports.  Of course I am a fairly accomodating type of person and if I know that using one method to do something causes someone else problems, and if using the other person's method is just as easy and doesn't cause problems, then I will use the other person's method.  Seems like the only reasonable thing to do.

That said, if you know that several people that you work with consistently mess with the UCS, you might want to just set up a script that changes the UCS to world every time you open a drawing.  There are many ways to get the same result with CAD and I usually find it easier to just roll with the punches even if you think that other people's methods are stupid.

[Sinc]

We follow the same basic idea as you, that a UCS creates problems, and is unnecessary, so we don't use it.

I know plenty of others who do, though, so it's definitely possible to use C3D either way.  It really comes down to personal preference.

Unfortunately, I don't think that gives you much ammo for your interoffice debate, except that I can say it is definitely NOT true that "everyone twists viewports with a UCS".

[Anonymous]

I concur with the previous statements, some people are too stubborn for their own good.  I have dealt with people who turn the UCS icon off or use Blipmode and then there is the issue of overlay or attached when using xrefs.  Like Shaneeliss stated, it's easier going around them and set up variables or scripts to set up your drawing environment when you start your drawing.  And when they have problems with why doesn't this insert right or this inserts way out there, I take a restroom break and let them stew a little.

I do twist the UCS on occasion and save the twisted system in case I have to back to it but I always go back to the world when I am done with that system.  Every tool has their use, but you have to learn to use them properly.

[JamesMaeding]

any labeling tools that require usc to be world to work right are half baked.

Many times, you purposefully set ucs to View, to be flat to a viewport to allow callouts with flat leader lines.

To require ucs to be world reflects a programmer who did not finish a tool.

As for using ucs or dview to twist a view, it should not matter.

Use whatever you want, but IMO both ways are a waste of time.

This is so common to see people argue over which OOTB command is best when both are junk.

Get a decent lisp that allows you to pick points, type a rotation, pick a line, and other options.

try the attached one.

[mathewkol]

I hate ti admit it but I agree, at least somewhat, with Maeding. There are many reasons why the UCS may need to be changed. If you're going to label coordinates, make sure you set UCS to World before doing so. I'm fairly certain that when you label coordinates with Civil 3D, it does not matter what the UCS is set to. Anyone care to confirm this as I'm nowhere near a PC now?

Regarding rotating your view in a paper space viewport, try just rotating the viewport (look into the VPROTATEASSOC variable). You'll get a rotated rectangle but it's actually a clipped viewport, unclip it and it's back to normal.

[JamesMaeding]

why hate to admit it?  Some lingering topic you did not like my stance on?

I will say openly I am not strapped to the C3D bandwagon, and the tools I have written to fill the gaps identified, have actually worked, thus making me that much more eager to keep pushing on Autodesk to fix the equivalent C3D feature. 

Note that clipped viewports are not supported by some popular plot drivers, like the ldf one from OCE.  Good reminder though.

The bigger issue in my mind on the UCS, is the darn civil batch converter uses the current coord system when wblocking things out to the new files it creates.  Its a bug that has been there from the beginning.

So you hand off a set of files with ucs set to user, and they come out very off coord base.

[Anonymous]

Nice program. I have one called HVT, don't know who wrote it but it does the job for me.  As they say their is more than one way to skin a cat, you just have to find the best way that works for you.

[Joe-Bouza]

I have been using USC for 20 years with out ever encountering  Unnecessary Crap Syndone. I also have not experenced a coordinate problem with c3d labels - I imagine that must be frustrating

[JamesMaeding]

right, the frustrating part of C3D is when you try to rotate a station/elevation callout.  Make a new style please.

Will they ever cover that need?

The college students from USC are in secret alliance with Autodesk, and have been hazed so simply do not realize the pain they are encountering 🙂

[civilspace]

Stubborn is right.  Offices are such a mix of old folks, and new kiddies, and people from this company and that company, that aside from office standards that need to be maintained, there are a WIDE range of ways to get the job done.  DVIEW/TWIST, UCS, Jmaedings lisp approach, whatever.  You can't (well, shouldn't) dictate how the person draws.

What it comes down to is: Are you good at your job?  Are you conscientious?  Old folks (and noobs alike), I'm talking to all of you.  Instead of ranting about it, how about just incorporating the habit of setting your UCS to world before labeling, or, if you're using UCS to rotate, just set your UCS to world post-rotate?  Problem solved.

I get tired of hearing of and encountering people, in both real-life and online who are so set in their ways you'd think they've worked in a vacuum for the last 10 years.  There's a whole lotta ways to skin a cat.

[JamesMaeding]

not only lots of ways to skin, but automatic ways.

Heck, set ucs to world in the acaddoc.lsp if you please.

AutoCad is a graphical operating ststem, like windows.

You always tweak windows a bit for important preferences, acad is the same.

The impatient cad operators make the best ones because they auotmate out the annoying issues.

[mathewkol]

WIZ...I guess you won't be using this thread to convince your users? Just like where to put text; model or paper space, you're going to get many for any many against. God I hope I didn't open a can of worms with the text in MS or PS comment 🙂

[civilspace]

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@mathewkol wrote:
WIZ...I guess you won't be using this thread to convince your users? Just like where to put text; model or paper space, you're going to get many for any many against. God I hope I didn't open a can of worms with the text in MS or PS comment 🙂

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What are you crazy? UCS sure, but lets not pretend there's options when it comes to text placement!  There can be only one solution!  One correct way for a unified department!

[WIZNICKARTS]

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. I understand that autocad is 100% customizable in every way, I guess it just seems un-necessary to me to change your coordinate system unless you have to. Of course, if we all have properly trained staff we have nothing to worry about. The only thing worse than training your staff and having them leave is not training your staff and having them stay. Thanks everyone. 

[BWYarger]

I think one thing we need to remember is that AutoCAD is used for civil, architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical and many other types of applications.  I really didn't know squat about UCS until I started doing 3D solids.  That is when you really see the need because your dimensions need to be aligned with many views of the same objects: top, front, right, left, etc.  In some cases like isometric views, your dimensioning plane is important.  This does not come up much in C3D, but it is important to other disciplines.

I agree that it is good to automate when you can, and sometimes it is to compensate for other AutoCAD user's habits!  

Opening Macro: "Overkill, purge, UCS, spell......."

Brad

C3D 2011

[Jeff_M]

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@jmaeding wrote:

right, the frustrating part of C3D is when you try to rotate a station/elevation callout.  Make a new style please.

Will they ever cover that need?

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Not using C3D2012 are you? 

[JamesMaeding]

on 2012, but not for production so did not see it.

I had heard it was added so thought to keep mentioning it.

Time to take another look, thanks Jeff.

[JamesMaeding]

indeed, its there in the alignment label and profile labels and works prettymuch as expected.

I might actually be able to use their labeling now, that is a big step forward for Autodesk.

[BRIAN195799]

Yes, all of us techs need to know how to set the UCS back to world before inserting anything into our drawings, because we might receive a drawing from another client (or another office) with the UCS temporarily rotated. We all need to look at the UCS icon in the bottom left corner of our screen before we work with a drawing from another client or another office.

I think a much bigger problem is when you receive a drawing from another office or client and the graphics in the drawing have been manually rotated. Unlike the UCS rotation you can’t get the correct coordinate system back unless you obtain the original drawing or a set of coordinates to move and rotate the drawing.

Dview requires that you know the angle of the twist or you have to keep typing in an angle two or three times etc. until you get the desired angle. With a UCS rotation you simply pick two points. One can create a rectangle around a viewport then block this rectangle out in the drawing. Next toggle to Modelspace and insert/ rotate this same rectangle at your desired scale. Repeat if you have multiple viewports. (For roadway jobs you can offset this original rectangle in paperspace by one or two inches. When you block out the outside triangle use the inside rectangle offset-midpoint as your insertion so when you insert this rectangle into model space on an even station - and on a horiz. alignment you will already have the matchline overlap.) Use your UCS to rotate the graphics by picking two points at the bottom of the rectangle. Go to the VIEW command and select the rectangle as your boundary. Go back to paperspace. Go into your viewport and restore the view you just made. You now have an exact fit that is to scale. It is much easier to set up all your rectangles in modelspace first because you can truly see where any limitations might occur. I like to keep the rectangles as a record because I have seen VIEWS get lost in a drawing. Saving the rectangles makes it much easier to go back to square one. For speed make sure that you isolate the rectangle layer before rotating and setting up views.  If you have a UCS that is rotated in your drawing simply type in UCS, then "W"