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Title Blocks - Insert vs. XREF in Paper Space

20 REPLIES 20
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Message 1 of 21
planetcad
25574 Views, 20 Replies

Title Blocks - Insert vs. XREF in Paper Space

I'd like feedback as to whether you "Insert" or "XERF" your title blocks into paper space for setting up sheets. What are the compelling arguments either way?

20 REPLIES 20
Message 2 of 21
Neilw_05
in reply to: planetcad

If the title block is shared across multiple files then you'll want to use an XREF. If within a single file then a block works fine.

 

If you have any reason to expect the project will evolve into multiple files for certain drawing sets then you'd save yourself a lot of re-work to start with XREF'd borders and title blocks.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 3 of 21
pinwards
in reply to: planetcad

We have a very fixed, static title block and border, so we insert it as a block into each sheet, but the Project Name, Sheet Numbers, etc. are inserted using Fields so we can update them via the Sheet Set Manager.  It works well for us.

 

#

Message 4 of 21
dgorsman
in reply to: planetcad

In theory, when the title block is an XREF the linework (e.g. company logo) can be udpated in one location without needing to update all drawings.  You would still need a block insert to handle the attributes though.  But there are a few short-comings with that method.  Radical changes to the appearace will require changing the inserted block with attributes on every drawings anyways.  You also need to handle legacy drawings as well - does that old drawing point to the right XREF?  If the XREF contents have changed but the file is still in the same place, the legacy drawing won't look the same as it was officially issued.

 

Almost all of our clients use straight-up block inserts.  One uses the XREF + insert scheme.

----------------------------------
If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.
"I don't know" is the beginning of knowledge, not the end.


Message 5 of 21
mathewkol
in reply to: planetcad

I don't like the XREF method for title blocks since attributes cannot be used. If you have to insert another block that contains them, what's the point?

In 13 years of drafting I have had to change the title bloick maybe once for a whole project mid-stream

I also have dynamic block properties in many of my title blocks which would not work with xrefs.
Matt Kolberg
SolidCAD Professional Services
http://www.solidcad.ca /
Message 6 of 21
neilyj666
in reply to: mathewkol

I've never used the Xref method but the Insert method works well for me as I have populated the block with field attributes/properties for use in Sheet Set Manager

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 7 of 21
david.zavislan
in reply to: planetcad

We use a combination of both.  Anything that appears on every sheet is in a drawing that is xrefed.  All the components that are unique to each sheet are inserted as a block.  The block contains attributes, which may have fields referencing sheet set properties.

David Zavislan, P.E. | Wood Rodgers, Inc.
Message 8 of 21
sjg
Advisor
in reply to: david.zavislan

We also insert our title block in as a block and utilize the custom sheet and sheet set fields in SSM. Very easy to manipulate alterations to the sheet or sheet set, all in the SSM without having to open any drawings.
Steve Goessling
Land Consultants
Civil3D 2015
Windows 7, 64 bit
Intel i7 2600 @ 3.40Ghz
16 GB RAM
Nvidia Quadro 600
Message 9 of 21
troma
in reply to: sjg

Our "Title Block" is just linework.  So we don't insert or x-ref. It's drawn in a template drawing and we just insert a layout from template, so all the linework is there.

We have Mtext with fields to reference Sheet Set data.  These are easier to deal with than blocks in the half of our projects that don't use sheet sets; we can just edit the Mtext, delete the field and write what we need.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 10 of 21
nostupidquestions
in reply to: troma

we do both block and xref. xref in the title block linework, project name, date, job number, drafter, etc. block in sheet title, page number, etc. once it's all set up in your drawing templates it's easy peasy. it's sucks having to change the date manually on 100 sheets.

Intel(R) Xeon(R) W-2245 CPU @ 3.90GHz 3.91 GHz
64 GB RAM
C3D 2023.2
Message 11 of 21
dgordon
in reply to: planetcad

we use the xref title block.   We often have revision notes that need to update on all sheets and the xref'd title block works great for this.   also if a sheet is added and we now have 20 sheets instead of 19 we just open the title block for that set of drawings change 19 to 20 and save and it's updated to all the sheets.   now if there was just a way to have it update to the already plotted plts or pfs that would be awesome 🙂

Dan

Civil 3D 2013
Win 7 Pro x64
Intel Xeon 2.0GHz
12Gb Ram
ATI Firepro 4800
Dell T5500
www.preinnewhof.com
Message 12 of 21
StephenMBindon
in reply to: dgordon

We speciify template .dwt files for our title blocks. The template file has an xref for the linework, blocks for the logos, etc and an attribute block for title block text.

 

We have had several complete changes to title block content and layout over the years, and used numerous lisp routines to allow updating of the xref, changing logos and updating/moving attribute information so all drawings look the same.

 

Being an xref means we can also copy that file to the specific project directory, and make title block changes that apply only to that project, like adding client logos and information.

Message 13 of 21
Berpc7
in reply to: planetcad

On this video you can see the hole explanation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKAYsR_pw2Q

Message 14 of 21
kkuecker26
in reply to: mathewkol

I also believe a block is the best way to go.  

 

I recently started with a company that does a lot of Federal DFD and USACE work.  Apparently those CAD standards require a reference for the title block.  

 

I find that very frustrating.

 

The default settings are:  Options>Plot and Publish>Specify plot offset relative to>Printable area

 

The title block xref comes in at (0,0) , which is at the edge of PRINTABLE AREA.  So now, the block is shifted by (0.79,0.79) because the insertion point is at the edge of paper, not printable area.  We should be able to just plot by Layout...however, some people insist on using Window.  They then snap to the edges of the title xref and now they just changed the (0,0) location in paper space.  So, when you flip through a plan set, the border shifts around depending on who plotted the sheets.  It is also frustrating to have (0,0) thrown off because now if you do need to xref something in, it no longer comes in exactly where you intend.  I just wish we could all get on the same page

 

 

 

 

Message 15 of 21
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: planetcad

I'm in the xref camp. At this point for clarity of language I call the Title block the attributes and the line work the Border. the The boarder has all static info and the Title block gets filled in.

 

For control the Border is Xref and the Title block is inserted.

 

Its what works for you, this works for me

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 16 of 21
MMcCall402
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

I've using the block method.  Its a dynamic block that can reshape itself for different sheet sizes (18x24, 22x34x 24x36 & 30x42).  Any 'text' in the block that can change is an attribute.  

 

This block is preloaded into my template drawings along with viewports, graphic scales, and any typical notes, tables, etc. that is anticipated to be used in that drawing sheet. The default attribute values are set to fields that pull info from the sheet set manager, some standard ones and  some custom. The the drawing scale attribute has a field set to pull the scale of the viewport that was pre-inserted in the template. The graphic scale has fields linked to the viewport as well.  All a user needs to do is to start a drawing from one a template drawings, save it, then add its tabs to the sheet set manager, align and scale the viewport ... lock the friggin viewport!.  The template drawings have their tabs pre-named with the anticipated sheet title which get pushed to the SSM when the layout is added. The viewports already have their layer states set (even xrefed layers and overrides).  Xrefs are pre-xrefed and waiting for the user to define the  file location.

 

I use that method for any drawing set that is 3 sheets or more.  Less than that the title block is manually edited by just holding down the ctrl key while double-clicking the attribute and they'll edit in place as if they were mtext. Just overwrite the field with static info.

 

I do have a second titleblock for the smaller sheets. All the same attributes, just a different format that fits 8.5x11,8.5x14, 11x17 and 17x11. Another dynamic block that reshapes.

 

Logo or address updates are fairly simple. Edit the master, insert & redefine. All attributes and field stay intact.

 

Ok, I went a little too far, but I wanted to show how it integrated into the process.

Mark Mccall 
CAD Mangler



Hammer Land Engineering


Linkedin

Message 17 of 21
AllenJessup
in reply to: planetcad

To me the theory of Xreffing titleblocks is from the old days when you tried to keep the drawing size as small as possible. Today the amount of entities in the titleblock if fairly meaningless as far as drawing size goes.

 

I've set up all out borders and titles as layouts in a DWT. They contain fields for the info that can be extracted from the drawing. The user can start from a DWT without the layouts and create layouts in their drawing From Template or start with all the layouts and delete the ones they don't need. That usually depends on how complicated the project is.

 

Since in most cases we create a drawing just for the layouts with the basemap and design xrefed. The plot drawing is usually one of the smallest. We don't use SSM because it doesn't usually fit the way we do things.



Allen Jessup
Engineering Specialist / CAD Manager

Message 18 of 21
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: MMcCall402

I do all the same except the border and global static info is xrefed ( that too is dynamic as is the TB block). I recently have been woringon a set in excess of 200 sheets and the stake holder changed their logo. Glad we only updated the one file.

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 19 of 21
deltacoolguy
in reply to: dgorsman


@dgorsman wrote:

In theory, when the title block is an XREF the linework (e.g. company logo) can be udpated in one location without needing to update all drawings.  You would still need a block insert to handle the attributes though.  But there are a few short-comings with that method.  Radical changes to the appearace will require changing the inserted block with attributes on every drawings anyways.  You also need to handle legacy drawings as well - does that old drawing point to the right XREF?  If the XREF contents have changed but the file is still in the same place, the legacy drawing won't look the same as it was officially issued.

 

Almost all of our clients use straight-up block inserts.  One uses the XREF + insert scheme.


Old thread, I know.

 

Anyway, I would solve that by saving the title block for that project with that project.  If modifications are done, it stays with that project only.  If none, that's fine, too.  But, it solves the legacy problem.  I would not x-ref from a central source.

Windows 10-64 Pro
8GB RAM (Home)
12GB RAM (Work)
AutoCAD Civil 3D 2019
Message 20 of 21
jason
in reply to: pinwards

I found using Fields and Sheet Set Manager made my cad files a lot larger. Is this the case with you as well or am I doing something wrong?

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