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Surface Manipulation

62 REPLIES 62
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Message 1 of 63
tysonbird
2296 Views, 62 Replies

Surface Manipulation

I am curious if it is possible to modify only specific portions of a surface? For example, I have recieved an xml surface representing FG for a project, and want to do an earthwork calculation, could I raise and lower only portions of the project say by using specific boundaries for the asphalt paving, concrete etc. and then implement the raise & lower surface feature for these portions of the FG surface.

 

At this time I have been creating multiple surfaces for each particular feature of the site, then paste the FG surface, add a boudary and lower appropriately. Finally, I have to go through and paste each particular feature and its small surface into one "subgrade surface" to get an accurate representation. This method results in countless small surfaces and alot of leg work for something that seems like it should be simple.

 

I know that the surface defentions (FL's or corridors), should they be provided, would make this easy, but there have been several occasions where these are not being made availble by the project sponsor. 

 

 

62 REPLIES 62
Message 41 of 63
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: troma

Agreed! Smiley Very Happy We made it!

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 42 of 63
tysonbird
in reply to: tysonbird

Joe -

I think your breakdown in discussion with others occurs on the statement " If subtract the green area from the fill or add to the cut I still reduce the fill". This is not true. The green area must be subtracted from the fill to give the contractor an accurate representation of the cut.

Different costs apply to each condition. Consider if the fills required import material. This would be significantly more costly than simple excavation.

It is imperative to know exact quantities for both cuts and fills.

While this has been a very interesting conversation, I still have not heard any quick fixes to establish a subgrade representation from a FG surface!!!

Message 43 of 63
Neilw_05
in reply to: tysonbird

Have you looked at the blog link that neilyj posted (8th post in this thread)? It is a great idea. It's still a bit of work to set up but it may have advantages over the method you are using.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 44 of 63
neilyj666
in reply to: Neilw_05


@Neilw wrote:

Have you looked at the blog link that neilyj posted (8th post in this thread)? It is a great idea. It's still a bit of work to set up but it may have advantages over the method you are using.


...yes , there is a bit of up front work to set it up but as it is fully dynamic it will react correctly to changes in the proposed final levels (assuming everything else stays as is)

 

It is also a useful technique for creating a stripped surface (i.e. to create a model of suitable cut material for reuse as fill after soil/peat/soft clay etc have been removed)

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 45 of 63
troma
in reply to: neilyj666

I love the idea in Eric Chappell's blog post, it is very cool and slick.  But I'm yet to be convinced that it's quicker or easier.

 

If I:

  1. build an FG surface
  2. draw boundaries
  3. Create Subgrade Surfaces
  4. paste FG into SG
  5. Add boundaries to SG
  6. lower SG by required depth

haven't I got to the same place, just as quick or quicker, and just as dynamic?  With Eric's method I can adjust the elevation (z-value) of the polylines to adjust the required depth.  With the method I just outlined I can do it by lowering or raising the SG.  In both methods the SG is dynamically linked to the FG. And both require the drawing of polylines around the areas.  The slight shortcut I seen in my method is I don't need to worry about setting the z-value or doing a tiny offset in my polylines.  (Possibly if I wanted to paste all my SG surfaces back together again I would need the offset.)  I also avoid having to explain the mind-bending eastern martial-art surface setup to my coworkers.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 46 of 63
neilyj666
in reply to: troma

Do you not end up with (potentially) many surfaces with various combinations of show/hide/outer boundaries?

 

The "Chappel" method creates just one surface to manage.

 

I would agree that creating boundaries around the various areas is a bit tedious...

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 47 of 63
CADvisers
in reply to: troma

See #3 comment of this entire thread.

 

Goes along with this http://www.civil4d.com/2011/11/underutilized-profile-view-graphics-hatch/#more-5472

 

 

Jonathan Stewart
CADvisers
P.O. Box 7811
Lancaster, PA 17604
Ph. 717-468-3111


Message 48 of 63
neilyj666
in reply to: CADvisers


@Anonymous wrote:

See #3 comment of this entire thread.

 

Goes along with this http://www.civil4d.com/2011/11/underutilized-profile-view-graphics-hatch/#more-5472

 

 


Comment 3 and the referred to thread appears to only be concerned with a constant depth, the other methods discussed allow for various contruction depths e.g. footpath, service road, landscape areas etc etc

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 49 of 63
CADvisers
in reply to: neilyj666

It's the same process for all the various depths of materials.

 

My example is just one material.

Jonathan Stewart
CADvisers
P.O. Box 7811
Lancaster, PA 17604
Ph. 717-468-3111


Message 50 of 63
neilyj666
in reply to: CADvisers


@Anonymous wrote:

It's the same process for all the various depths of materials.

 

My example is just one material.


Indeed - and you end up with loads of surfaces to manage

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 51 of 63
CADvisers
in reply to: neilyj666

"Manage"?  

You only have one surface per material.

It consists of Pasting the FG, lowering the depth, and applying a boundary, (which is most likely already drawn).

 

If that's hard to manage, I'm sorry.

 

The benifits and advantages of this process out weigh the couple minutes of "managing" these surfaces.

Jonathan Stewart
CADvisers
P.O. Box 7811
Lancaster, PA 17604
Ph. 717-468-3111


Message 52 of 63
neilyj666
in reply to: CADvisers

No need to apologise - we'll just agree to disagreeSmiley Wink

 

I prefer to take the time to do the offset polylines as per the Chapell method to create one subgrade surface from which I can use the Volume dashboard to carve up various areas for earthworks/haul distance analysis

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 53 of 63
CADvisers
in reply to: neilyj666

Fair enough. I need them to do that as well as show them on design plans in profile views and section views. Jonathan Stewart CADvisers P.O. Box 7811 Lancaster, PA 17604 Ph. 717-468-3111
Jonathan Stewart
CADvisers
P.O. Box 7811
Lancaster, PA 17604
Ph. 717-468-3111


Message 54 of 63
neilyj666
in reply to: CADvisers

Forgot to say that the profile hatching trick is very useful (and underused in my opinion)

 

I wouldn't discount using your method if I needed too though 

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 55 of 63
fcernst
in reply to: neilyj666

Here's a shot of what the earthwork contractors use to do takeoffs from the engineering plans. Just gives you an idea what they are looking at when things get down to business, billing your Client, and livelihoods.

 

Capture.JPG



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Message 56 of 63
neilyj666
in reply to: fcernst

One day Civil 3D will be able to produce a report like this.......

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 57 of 63
troma
in reply to: neilyj666

  1. Keep all your subgrade surfaces seperate.
  2. Do a volume analysis; set up all your srbgrades compared to the stripped surface
  3. Export the volume analysis as an .xml
  4. Open the xml as a spreadsheet
  5. Saveas a new name (.xlsx?) and format at will

I do this for all our sites.  I end up with a very similar looking report.

 


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 58 of 63
fcernst
in reply to: troma

"Keep all your subgrade surfaces seperate."

 

That's not a workable solution as businees owner who needs designers doing design work and keeping track of their design quanties in real-time along with their design. 

 

See my post in Wishes for a Subgrade surface Tab under Surface Properties.



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Message 59 of 63
troma
in reply to: fcernst

Not sure exactly what you're getting at.  I have read your wish previously.

 

We use subgrade surfaces solely for earthwork quantities.  Quantities of gravel, asphalt &c. are a simple area x depth calculation.

 

As for earthworks, if you have the FG pasted into multiple SGs which are then lowered it is easy to keep up with quantities.  It's all dynamic.  Once you've done the analysis I mentioned earlier, you can always import the .xml back in again, recalc the quantities and export it again.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 60 of 63
fcernst
in reply to: troma

We use subgrade surfaces solely for earthwork quantities.  Quantities of gravel, asphalt &c. are a simple area x depth calculation.

 

Yes, of course I mean earthwork quantities.

 

 

As for earthworks, if you have the FG pasted into multiple SGs which are then lowered it is easy to keep up with quantities.

 

No, your employer doesn't want you doing all this pasting and managing of surfaces. Your project variance (hours spent/hours budgeted) is taking a beating doing this. Your manager probably has no idea why. He/She will just have the history of staff variance reports to consider during layoffs two years from now.

 

One easily managed Subgrade surface is what is needed. My Wish List item clearly outlines how to do this.



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com

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