Rising Main (Force main) Rules and pipe flow direction

[peter_thomson]

Hi All,

I am setting template settings for pipe networks and have a question on rising mains...

Say I have a rising main that needs to follow the ground contours...both up and down...
I know I can do this by alignment and profile in 2009, but I don't like how I can't select invert levels when my pipe network is created...and I don't like how it creates a separate network when I might want more rising mains in one network, but that is by the by.

So, I want to code in my pipes and structures (pipe joints) by picking on screen and control the flow direction arrow in the create pipe network dialogue as the ground slope changes from up-slope to down-slope.
I imagined that this would, in association with my rules, allow the pipe to follow the ground slope but have joints located where I pick them

My rules are
Pipe - Cover Only
Structures - Sump depth 0, Drop across structure - Invert, 0, 0
There rules give me the effect I want, ie pipes that connect together at invert but that preserve min cover requirements.

If I change the flow direction button from up to down as I am picking the structure locations in plan, the software will not allow the pipes to follow the down-slope....up-slope is fine...down-slope gives me horizontal pipes that suit cover at the lower end.

How do I fix this?
Is this a bug or have I got my concept wrong?

C3D 2008.

Picture attached...

cheers,
Peter T Edited by: peter.a.thomson@mwhglobal.com on Sep 10, 2009 11:53 AM

[peter_thomson]

I just tried this again but have my rising main going down-slope first and then up-slope...
The problem with down-slope still persists. Tthe downslope pipes are horizontal....up-slope pipes are fine...

PT

[Anonymous]

I'll have to check the rules but I think you are going to need to flip
the direction and re-apply the rules to the downstream section to get
the results you want.

Matthew Anderson, PE CFM



peter.a.thomson@mwhglobal.com wrote:
> I just tried this again but have my rising main going down-slope first and then up-slope...
> The problem with down-slope still persists. Tthe downslope pipes are horizontal....up-slope pipes are fine...
>
> PT
>

[peter_thomson]

Oh,

This sort of negates the whole purpose of having a toggle that can be changed during the pipe creation process.
My understanding is that the toggle provides a slope attribute to the pipe itself. If this is the case, why should one need to re-run rules over upslope and downslope sections separately when the pipe attribute for slope direction should handle this.

I simply want the pipe to honour min cover and to join to subsequent pipes at the place I pick, irrespective of the slope. I just want it to follow the ground.

I suspect the rules have been written to cope with gravity pipelines and that the slope attribute only activates the "Cover and Slope" rule.
In some ways that probably makes sense, but not for a rising main.

In good ole LDD days, you could set the slope toggle to "none" and the pipe would just happily follow the ground..if my memory serves me correctly.

Perhaps have missed the bus again....is no-one else doing this stuff with C3D anywhere?

cheers for the response.
Peter Edited by: peter.a.thomson@mwhglobal.com on Sep 10, 2009 4:58 PM

[Anonymous]

In looking at the code for the CoverOnly rule - there needs to be some
additional work done / additional thought to make this rule work
correctly. At this point, the rule reflects the values you see - ie,
flat pipes.

Matthew Anderson, PE CFM



peter.a.thomson@mwhglobal.com wrote:
> Oh,
>
> This sort of negates the whole purpose of having a toggle that can be changed during the pipe creation process.
> My understanding is that the toggle provides a slope attribute to the pipe itself. If this is the case, why should one need to re-run rules over upslope and downslope sections separately when the pipe attribute for slope direction should handle this.
>
> I simply want the pipe to honour min cover and to join to subsequent pipes at the place I pick, irrespective of the slope. I just want it to follow the ground.
>
> I suspect the rules have been written to cope with gravity pipelines and that the slope attribute only activates the "Cover and Slope" rule.
> In some ways that probably makes sense, but not for a rising main.
>
> In good ole LDD days, you could set the slope toggle to "none" and the pipe would just happily follow the ground..if my memory serves me correctly.
>
> Perhaps have missed the bus again....is no-one else doing this stuff with C3D anywhere?
>
> cheers for the response.
> Peter
>
> Edited by: peter.a.thomson@mwhglobal.com on Sep 10, 2009 4:58 PM
>

[Anonymous]

From the code -

If bCoverOnly Then
If eFlowDir = FlowDirectionType.StartToEnd Then
endElevation(oPipe) = oPipe.StartPoint.Z
Else
startElevation(oPipe) = oPipe.EndPoint.Z
End If

this should work only if there isn't any surface - but I would suspect
that the elevation of the pipe should be something similiar to this:
dNewPipeZ = oSurface.FindElevationAtXY(oPipe.StartPoint.X,
oPipe.StartPoint.Y) - dMinimumCover

Matthew Anderson, PE CFM



peter.a.thomson@mwhglobal.com wrote:
> Oh,
>
> This sort of negates the whole purpose of having a toggle that can be changed during the pipe creation process.
> My understanding is that the toggle provides a slope attribute to the pipe itself. If this is the case, why should one need to re-run rules over upslope and downslope sections separately when the pipe attribute for slope direction should handle this.
>
> I simply want the pipe to honour min cover and to join to subsequent pipes at the place I pick, irrespective of the slope. I just want it to follow the ground.
>
> I suspect the rules have been written to cope with gravity pipelines and that the slope attribute only activates the "Cover and Slope" rule.
> In some ways that probably makes sense, but not for a rising main.
>
> In good ole LDD days, you could set the slope toggle to "none" and the pipe would just happily follow the ground..if my memory serves me correctly.
>
> Perhaps have missed the bus again....is no-one else doing this stuff with C3D anywhere?
>
> cheers for the response.
> Peter
>
> Edited by: peter.a.thomson@mwhglobal.com on Sep 10, 2009 4:58 PM
>

[peter_thomson]

This code stuff right now is new to me and I would have to try and understand it to build my own rules I guess...

Many thanks for your responses, at least I understand why it is not functioning as I expected it to.

The downside is that I expect to need to use these sorts of tools in a job that is coming up soon...and it would be nice to have the time to understand all this and fix it before then.

The workaround for me right now is to manually drag all the downslope pipes into position as I go.

cheers, I appreciate your input..
Peter

[castled071049]

"and I don't like how it creates a separate network when I might want more rising mains in one network".
After you create the first portion of your network by Layout, and later want to add more pieces to that network, choose "Edit Network" instead. You will be asked to select a pipe or structure in the network that you want to edit, and then you will be able to add pieces to that pipe network without creating a new network.