AutoCAD Civil 3D General Discussion

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rkmcswain
Posts: 3,173
Registered: ‎11-13-2006
Message 21 of 46 (264 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 06:29 AM in reply to: ak-1986

akirsch1986 wrote:

Thought I would put in my 2 cents ......


So I will also...

 

Going back to the days before C3D, LDT, Softdesk, Carlson, Eagle Point, to the point where the "profile view" was just a series of AutoCAD lines, I've never had the need to rotate a profile grid view. I'm not saying that it might not be useful to others somehow, but I've never needed it and don't now.

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Jeff_M
Posts: 4,202
Registered: ‎07-22-2003
Message 22 of 46 (258 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 07:19 AM in reply to: rkmcswain

rkmcswain wrote:

akirsch1986 wrote:

Thought I would put in my 2 cents ......


So I will also...

 

Going back to the days before C3D, LDT, Softdesk, Carlson, Eagle Point, to the point where the "profile view" was just a series of AutoCAD lines, I've never had the need to rotate a profile grid view. I'm not saying that it might not be useful to others somehow, but I've never needed it and don't now.


+1

I do most of my design work in a base file where all my alignments and profiles reside. There may be 30-50 ProfileViews, I can't even imagine them being rotated to match their respective alignments. After the Plan Production Manager cuts the sheets for me, I do all of my labeling in MS through a PS VP in those PP sheets, not the design file.

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sboon
Posts: 2,075
Registered: ‎11-08-2005
Message 23 of 46 (248 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 07:50 AM in reply to: Jeff_M

Agree with Jeff.  By the time my design is complete there are no labels or text visible anywhere on the plan view, and I don't care what the profile view looks like since I'll create new ones in each of the sheet files.

 

Steve
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jfalkowski
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎10-03-2006
Message 24 of 46 (229 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 10:07 AM in reply to: sboon

Back in LDT days, we use to do our profiles in a separate drawing and then XREF them back into the working file (and rotate if necessary), since our plan sheets were typically n that file as well.  It didnt matter since all of the alignment and surface data was project folder based back then.  Now, I just don't feel like dealing with data shortcuts and whatnot, so most of it all resides in one drawing.  We typically only ever have one or two users working on the same project at the same time.

 

We always set our horizonal plane @ the beginning of the job depending on the layout or frontage streets, then twist model space accordingly.  It then stays that way for the remainder of the project.  We don't label everything with 3D labels so the manual labels need to be at the printed axis as well, and we do all of our labeling in model space.  This would seem like a PITA if model was in WCS but we were placing labels @ an angle.  It's just easier to work that way for us...I guess do whatever works best for you. 

 

Maybe some are misunderstanding...I'm not saying I wish each profile view was at the same angle as its corresponding alignment.  I just wish you could either set it's orientation to View, or just specify an angle manually so that everything in model space is on the same left/right plane after a twist is applied.  Since a profile is simply a view of referenced data that doesnt move, you would think this would be rather simple to do since various other display mediums give that option...

 

 

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rkmcswain
Posts: 3,173
Registered: ‎11-13-2006
Message 25 of 46 (224 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 10:39 AM in reply to: jfalkowski

jfalkowski wrote:

Back in LDT days, we use to do our profiles in a separate drawing and then XREF them back into the working file ...

 

 


We did the same thing in LDT and continue to do the same thing in C3D. For comparison, my "Profile" drawing is a blank empty drawing, with the alignment, surface(s), and pipe networks dRef'ed in. The profile view and profiles are generated there. Then that drawing is xrefed into the P&P drawing, xcliped, then displayed through a viewport in the layout.

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engrtech
Posts: 698
Registered: ‎05-05-2008
Message 26 of 46 (215 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 11:17 AM in reply to: jfalkowski

jfalkowski wrote:

Now, I just don't feel like dealing with data shortcuts and whatnot, so most of it all resides in one drawing.  We typically only ever have one or two users working on the same project at the same time.

 


The best practices management to using C3D is to use different drawings with data shortcuts or Vault. Back in C3D 2008 and earlier we used to put everything in the same drawing, but realized that it was slowing C3D down to the point where it was taking 20 seconds just to pan around the drawing, let alone work in it. Like you, we usually only have one person working on a project, but even then we changed to the way Autodesk wants the software to be used by using data shortcuts. We've got a survey drawing, a present layout drawing, a proposed layout drawing, an alignments & profiles drawing, an existing ground drawing, a corridor drawing, and a cross section drawing. Using XREFs and data shortcuts makes dealing with the software easy to work with and speeds everything up. Because the profiles are in the drawing with alignments, you don't have to worry about rotation of the profile view because the only thing in that drawing that's being plotted is the profile and everything stays in world coordinates. 

 

The basic premise is to keep each civil object type in its own drawing and use data shortcuts to share them to other drawings. That dramatically speeds up the software and makes it easier to manage for plan production versus modeling & design. We do this even on smaller projects where there might be just a 400' intersection widening because it just works so well. Your workflows might not be able to do something like this, but that's the way Autodesk has been designing C3D and it works pretty good if you follow it. 

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jfalkowski
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎10-03-2006
Message 27 of 46 (209 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 12:27 PM in reply to: engrtech

I hear ya and appreciate the response but not everything Autodesk recommends is advantageous to all users.  Take their supplied styes for example, we use approximately 5% of them out of the box, and the ribbons are cumbersome...but I digress. I applaud Autodesk for allowing users to still completely customize and tailor the software to meet our needs...rather than dictating how things must look and function.  You would not recognize the software if you fired it up on one of our machines.

 

That workflow may work well for some but sounds like a nightmare to me and completely unnecessary, especially for smaller projects.  If you keep your drawings cleaned, orgainzed, purged, etc...you should not have issues with slowness or lag.  I don't.  The largest file I have is probably 25 MB and that is for 100M+ projects of significant size and scope.  By the looks of that one drawing that was posted...I can completely understand how drawings get all buggered up and slow. 

 

Personally, I think that workflow would work best for projects that have multiple people working on them at the same time, in different locations..that was the whole premise behind vault right?  We don't use it and probably never will, but it has its applications.  We use data shortcuts very limited - mainly to dref the existing surface into our design drawing, leaving the base file unmolested.  I don't see the advantage of having alignments and pipe networks in separate drawings though.  Profile view, maybe but that is a lot of data to reference into one drawings just to keep them separated for the sake of separation.  It does solve the twist problem though..so maybe I'll look into it.

 

Thanks,

Jon

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owenmull
Posts: 356
Registered: ‎09-06-2011
Message 28 of 46 (199 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 12:46 PM in reply to: jfalkowski

Same as before.

 

Sorry, I completely disagree. 

 

You're completely free to disagree, however, all Im pointing out to you is that how you are going about it, is not how the software was designed to do it.

 

We always design in model space and we almost always orient the view based on the working design plane and what the drawings will be plotted at.  This is usually set in the beginning and does not change throughout the project.  We label all of our structures and pipes in model (numbers, grate el, inverts, sta., etc.).  If you labeled them all with model in WCS then how would you know what the final product would look like in the viewport after you rotate it?  Especially if you have the sheets generated automatically along the alignment.  Labels would be on top of each other because it holds the label insertion point and rotates referenced to that.  Unless all of your labels are perfect circles with a center insertion point...I'm not sure anyone could guess well enough.So do you label everything in model (no twist)...then create your viewport in paper space...then move all your labels around via working through the viewport so that labels are not all on top of each other?  How do you accomplish this if you generate your sheets automatically without looking at them first? 

 


The software cannot read your mind and divine what the final product needs to look like. Of course some label editing/tweaking is always necessery, and always will be, no matter how streamlined they (Autodesk) makes C3D. That's why you can edit the orientation reference of the label to be the object itself, view, or WCS. You can set it up so that no matter the rotation of objects in your viewport, labels always appear normally.

 

What if you have a roadway that makes a fairly circular loop? How do you set your ModelSpace Axis in that scenario? You would have to pick an axis, and then MANUALLY rotate the rest of your labels and/or objects that do not suit your Axis. Doing it this way completely defeats the software. That is the true inefficiency.

 

See the attachments.  Model with twist is the utility plan with all labels rotated to the view they will be plotted to and labels are placed so that everything is completely legible and do not overlap each other.  Model w/ no twist shows what happens when you rotate back to WCS.  So how do you label in WCS but have your labels where you need them once your viewport gets twisted?  Do you revise through the viewport or do you just guess where to place them and anticpate their location after rotation?  Seems counterproductive and highly inefficient to me. 

 

I label what I can while in MS, then once my sheets are generated, go and add labels, and organize them via PS the, yes. This is how the program functions best, and is designed for.

 

LATER POST

 

WOW, that looks terrible....haha.  How do you work like that?? IMO, Model space should be clean and organized without a bunch of jumbled labels on top of each other that you can't even read. 

 

This is why Autodesk created Annotation Scales. Use them. 

 

That is precisely the purpose of PaperSpace. ModelSpace is where all your designs go. They are organized in PS.

 

So what do you do when your consultants or agencies request CAD files?  Or files need to be sent to contractors for stakeout? Do you send them that cluttered mess of a drawing with **** everywhere and say "here, you figure it out, that's the way Autodesk intended it to be"  That would not fly my my clients...haha.

 

There's several ways to do that. You could use a layer filter to control what is displayed/not displayed. Freeze layers. Some save as a new drawing and strip what is irrelevent to the contractor. 

 

To each thier own.  You guys keep saying the way the software was intended or designed to be.  There have been so many additions since the birth of this software...just because the user can't do something now does not mean it was designed that way...

 

This statement makes no sense. You're saying that just because the software can't do it, doesn't mean it wasn't designed to do it?

 

Are there flaws with C3D? Absolutely, but going against how the software is designed, 99% of the time, is not the most efficient.

 

-Owen

-Owen
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jfalkowski
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎10-03-2006
Message 29 of 46 (191 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 01:30 PM in reply to: owenmull

C'mon Owen...Autodesk never intended engineers to work in model space through the viewport in PS.  Can you do it with maximize viewport, sure.  But you can also wipe before you poop.  Disagree if you want but I'm pretty sure that's not AutoCADs suggested workflow for designing.  To me and 99% of the engineering community, labels are part of the design and belong in model, at least for most objects. PS is not intended to organize your design, it's for plotting the design once completed. THAT's the way the software was designed.

 

You still don't aswer my questions though, just speak condescendingly to me about how the software was designed.  Keep reiterating, I might start believing you.  Or instead, just please move along - I'm not interested in your witty banter.

 

Annotation scales have nothing to do with why those labels are on top of each other.  It's because they are not at the desired rotation for viewing.  Try again.  Could you change annotation to 1"=5' so you could read them, sure...but why?  Could you freeze labels, sure...but why?  Maybe I want to read the sewer labels and the storm drain labels at the same time while "designing" in model?  Crazy thought, right? LOL  I guess you would suggest going to paper and modifying the design throught the viewport like "the software was designed". 

 

Also, I'm saying just because you can't do something NOW, does not mean you won't be able to in the future.  Many functions are included now that weren't 5 years ago.  Many which you will claim was how the software was "designed to be used".  Maybe you should clarify what year it was designed to be used since you know so much about the programmer's intentions.

 

Yeah...I'm going against 99% of the software *roll eyes*

 

 

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engrtech
Posts: 698
Registered: ‎05-05-2008
Message 30 of 46 (187 Views)

Re: PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

02-13-2014 01:38 PM in reply to: jfalkowski

jfalkowski wrote:

C'mon Owen...Autodesk never intended engineers to work in model space through the viewport in PS.  Can you do it with maximize viewport, sure.  But you can also wipe before you poop.  Disagree if you want but I'm pretty sure that's not AutoCADs suggested workflow for designing.  To me and 99% of the engineering community, labels are part of the design and belong in model, at least for most objects. PS is not intended to organize your design, it's for plotting the design once completed. THAT's the way the software was designed.

 

You still don't aswer my questions though, just speak condescendingly to me about how the software was designed.  Keep reiterating, I might start believing you.  Or instead, just please move along - I'm not interested in your witty banter.

 

Annotation scales have nothing to do with why those labels are on top of each other.  It's because they are not at the desired rotation for viewing.  Try again.  Could you change annotation to 1"=5' so you could read them, sure...but why?  Could you freeze labels, sure...but why?  Maybe I want to read the sewer labels and the storm drain labels at the same time while "designing" in model?  Crazy thought, right? LOL  I guess you would suggest going to paper and modifying the design throught the viewport like "the software was designed". 

 

Also, I'm saying just because you can't do something NOW, does not mean you won't be able to in the future.  Many functions are included now that weren't 5 years ago.  Many which you will claim was how the software was "designed to be used".  Maybe you should clarify what year it was designed to be used since you know so much about the programmer's intentions.

 

Yeah...I'm going against 99% of the software *roll eyes*

 

 


Why are you using final lables while designing? Most labels we use while designing are just for informational use and aren't used in the final plot. We don't even bother to label pipes and only number the structures while designing pipe networks because the data is in the pipe network itself. By placing almost all of the design in the same drawing you are going against the design intent of C3D. Labeling is supposed to be done through a viewport in paper space. That's the design intent. You don't design through a viewport, but you label it. 

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