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One master description key

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Message 1 of 22
MaryBell1
1244 Views, 21 Replies

One master description key

I need one desc key that will update in all drawings. I am just getting started and I have a drawing template where for the most part I keep the desc key updated. I am just starting a new project and will make revisions and additions as I go to the desc key. If I make the change in my working drawing it doesn't update 'universally' just in that one drawing. Is there a way to have one 'master' that updates as you go? I have tried to drag and drop to keep one or the other up to date but that doesn't work. Also, there will eventually be 2 additional users so how will that work if we all can't use the same master description key?

21 REPLIES 21
Message 2 of 22
sboon
in reply to: MaryBell1

The Description key in each drawing only works within that drawing.  What is the problem with copying a DescKey set from one drawing to another?

 

Steve
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Steve
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Message 3 of 22
Pointdump
in reply to: MaryBell1

MaryBell,

 

Eric Colburn said it best:

Description keys are unneccessary.

 

Dave

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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Message 4 of 22
rl_jackson
in reply to: Pointdump

In using LDD for yearssss and now C3D for 5yrs I would definitely not recommend that workflow.

 

Forgive me if my thinking is wrong here, but I see that method as having a point group for every symbol, and if you doing engineer as well as surveying, this could lead to a lot of groups which do have limitations (around 20, which afterwards it starts to affect overall preformance).

 

Now from a survey only prespective you may never need that many groups to accomplish this method but you start throwing in other aspects and I can see things going to heck in a handbasket fast.

 

This is not to say that I dont use groups to do just what Eric describes, I just don't do it for the entire drawing.


Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI

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Message 5 of 22
Cadguru42
in reply to: rl_jackson

I like description keys. They work great and have little overhead. Point groups are a pain to work with when you have more than two for display purposes. If you need to work on a description key, make your changes, apply them and you're done. If you need it in another drawing just copy it over and apply the description key to the point group. It's even easier with the Manage>Styles>Import command from the ribbon.

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 6 of 22
Pointdump
in reply to: rl_jackson

rl,

 

How many point styles do you need? Only surveyors use points. Engineers use lines, arcs, and polylines.

 

You have a point about drawing performance, but I don't think the number of groups slows a drawing any more than any other complexity in a C3D drawing. Surfaces are a far bigger performance concern.

 

Eric made a valid point about the positively mind-boggling problem of figuring out what layer a point is on when Description Keys are thrown into the mix. And I think he's right that Autodesk only kept Description Keys because of tradition and not wanting to rock the boat. (Like they didn't do any of that with C3D.)

 

It's time to chuck Description Keys.

 

Dave

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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Message 7 of 22
Cadguru42
in reply to: Pointdump


@Pointdump wrote:

rl,

 

How many point styles do you need? Only surveyors use points. Engineers use lines, arcs, and polylines.

 

You have a point about drawing performance, but I don't think the number of groups slows a drawing any more than any other complexity in a C3D drawing. Surfaces are a far bigger performance concern.

 

Eric made a valid point about the positively mind-boggling problem of figuring out what layer a point is on when Description Keys are thrown into the mix. And I think he's right that Autodesk only kept Description Keys because of tradition and not wanting to rock the boat. (Like they didn't do any of that with C3D.)

 

It's time to chuck Description Keys.

 

Dave


It's not hard to figure out what layer a point is on. For us, any sanitary sewer structure (manhole, valve, cleanout, etc.) is on layer V-UTIL-SSWR-STRCT. A power pole is on V-UTIL-POWR-POLE. Any point that is not a single object that doesn't need a symbol, such as a ground shot or curb shot, is placed on V-NODE-PNT. It's not a nightmare knowing what layers a point symbol is on. 

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 8 of 22
AllenJessup
in reply to: MaryBell1

As I mentioned in another thread. You can try editing the Desc Keys in your Template, create a new drawing from that template and insert your working drawing into that new drawing. The resultant drawing should have your new Desc Keys.

 

We don't use Desc Keys. We have a 3rd party program, Pconnect. So I haven't worked that much with Desc Keys.

 

Allen



Allen Jessup
Engineering Specialist / CAD Manager

Message 9 of 22
rl_jackson
in reply to: Pointdump

I have over 60 point styles (I do survey only), and about 10 lable styles. I let the symbol do the talking. I dont worry about the layer the DKEY does that for me.

Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI

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Message 10 of 22
KirkNoonan
in reply to: MaryBell1

Keep your description keys in your template and store your template on the server where it is accessible to your other users. You can't drag and drop the individual keys, but you can drag and drop the whole description key set. It isn't really something that needs a lot of updating after you have it set up the way you want.

Message 11 of 22
Pointdump
in reply to: Cadguru42

engrtech,

 

A Description Key may place points on a particular layer, but the Point Style and Label Style confuse the issue of exactly what layer the point is on. I'm not the brightest pixel on the screen, but I found the only way to truly know what layer a point is on is to use Point Groups.

 

Dave

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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Message 12 of 22
rl_jackson
in reply to: Pointdump

It's all about how the style and key are set up.

I use what I would call By Block method. Everything goes to 0 in the style and the key controls the layer the object resides on.

Since I do survey only drawing, I almost never freeze a label without freezing the symbol - it's quick and dirty. If someone else needs my drawing they can deal with it with there template.


Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI

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Message 13 of 22
KirkNoonan
in reply to: Pointdump

Our surveyors have over 100 point styles. We would be completely lost without descriptor keys. If the layers, descriptor keys, labels and point styles are set up properly and used consistently, there shouldn't be any question about what point or label is on which layer. The point groups for us are more like a container to put several similar points into (water appurtenances, trees, topographic features, etc.)

The engineering side of things uses points instead of blocks for grading and layout of utilities. That saves the step of having to calc a lot of stakeout.

Message 14 of 22
Pointdump
in reply to: KirkNoonan

Kirk,

 

"If the layers, descriptor keys, labels and point styles are set up properly and used consistently, there shouldn't be any question about what point or label is on which layer."

 

That, sir, presupposes a lot of understanding about how those disparate objects collide with one another, let alone how groups, command defaults and child styles complicate the matter of what layer a point is really on. An understanding I have not been able, in three years of thoughtful study, to fully grasp. I think I read Sinc's White Paper on the topic of Point Styles and Layers at least twenty times, and I came away as confused as ever.

 

Using Point Groups, I can tell you exactly what layer any point or its label is on. Using Description Keys, I cannot.

 

Dave

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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NVIDIA Quadro P5000 16GB
Windows 10 Pro 64 / Civil 3D 2024
Message 15 of 22
KirkNoonan
in reply to: Pointdump

My point exactly; if the pieces are all put together properly, they don't collide.
The point group shows what layer it's points are on as does the properties window. But that is not necessary when I know that the existing fire hydrant point that I'm looking at is on the existing fire hydrant layer. For me, it is easier to manage 110 different descriptor keys (that the average user doesn't mess with) than it would be to manage 110 different point groups.
Message 16 of 22
rkmcswain
in reply to: Pointdump


@Pointdump wrote:

rl,

 

How many point styles do you need? Only surveyors use points. Engineers use lines, arcs, and polylines.

 



With all due respect, where did you come up with that?

 

We (on the engineering/design side) process the survey data and use description keys quite successfully.

We also use Desc Keys for what you might call "proposed" points (borehole locations, property corners, etc.)

IOW - we use Cogo Points daily.

 

Regarding whether or not Desc Keys are the only way to go - I'm not saying that, but it's silly to say the opposite too, IMO.

 

 

R.K. McSwain     | CADpanacea | on twitter
Message 17 of 22
IanMcClain
in reply to: MaryBell1

Put your description key in a dwt template drawing available on a shared/networked location and start all new drawings with that template. If you have older drawings that need the updated key you can always open the template and drag & drop it in, as it sounds like you are doing now. The description key is stored in the drawing so the "master" key is what is in your template.

 

I would recommend taking some time to build a complete description key for this purpose so as to minimize the need to update as you go.

Ian McClain
Message 18 of 22
MaryBell1
in reply to: IanMcClain

I need to clarify.... I have just transitioned to C3D 2014 and I am building desc key for the first time. I have a template where I did the majority of my building. Now I'm ready to start my project, as I'm going through I'm testing my symbols, linework (desc key) etc. and was jumping back and forth from my project to my template to keep it updated and modified, well that got really annoying so I just updating in the project because I kept hearing you can drag and drop styles and the desckey. I have not been successful yet in doing that. So can you please be more specific about dragging and dropping. I pick the desckey from the toolspace window and drag it over to my second monitor where i have my template drawing open. It gives me a circle w/slash symbol. I am obviously dropping in the wrong spot. I think I would much rather set a path in options.

 

Message 19 of 22
IanMcClain
in reply to: MaryBell1

Try this:

 

Open the working dwg and the template in one session of CAD.

 

In the toolspace window, settings tab change the view at the top to "Master View" if it isn't already.

 

Then find desc key in the working dwg, click and drag it up or down to the template name and hover over the name.

 

The circle-slash should change to a pick arrow with a dashed box below it, then it is ok to release and select "overwrite" when prompted.

Ian McClain
Message 20 of 22
MaryBell1
in reply to: IanMcClain

IAN! Thank you so much.... it took some doing but it worked. That just made my day!!!   Woman Very Happy

 

too bad the autodesk help menu couldn't just explain it that way!

 

Mary

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