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*Michael Rogerson
Message 1 of 4 (163 Views)

Need Examples - Curve Group and PI labels/Tables

163 Views, 3 Replies
05-20-2004 09:37 AM
We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to get some examples and feedback. This is lengthy. In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label that allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this can contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect point, and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what is selected. So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can apply/select the following: 1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents actually meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them, including a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral. 2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two tangents, a tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as information about the Spirals and Curve. 3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and curve, or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free. In this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the Curve. Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but this does include "Tangent-Intersect" labels. So here are questions and requests: |First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a series of compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals. This could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what sort of general rule do you use to "group" these together? |Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in order to identify a given group |Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities within a group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group |Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many, and as varied as you can come up with. You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any feedback is appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them to me directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and thanks, Mike Autodesk, Inc. Michael C. Rogerson, PE Product Designer - Program Manager ISD Civil Engineering Software Development
*Rad Lazic
Message 2 of 4 (163 Views)

Re: Need Examples - Curve Group and PI labels/Tables

05-20-2004 11:35 PM in reply to: *Michael Rogerson
|First| - The easiest way to describe this is by the fact that the mathematical definition of the chlothoid curve has both the negative and the positive part. The inflexion point between the two is where radius changes sign (e.g. left to right). We know that the rate of change for radius value is used as the clothoid parameter (A). It is the fact that what radius is to the circular curve, the parameter A is to the clothoid curve. Knowing this, it makes sense to treat the transition curves between two adjacent S curves as one curve with a single inflexion point where radius changes sign. This requires that there is the constant parameter A all along that curve starting as outgoing spiral from the first curve and ending as incoming spiral to the second curve. This has a few vehicle dynamics advantages - the word there is "SAFETY". Having said all this - we can use the rule where we group those elements as "curve, spiral,curve,spiral,curve..." regardless of if they are S or compound C curves because there is always one spiral curve between the two circular curves with the changing sign(S-curve) or not (C-curve). This does not mean that we do not need Tangent IP labels, just that they can describe the "little IPs" for individual elements (spirals, arcs) or the "big IPs" intesecting tangents running through inflection points of the adjacent curves. Little IPs will require different parametres (styles) for spirals or arcs and big IPs will have their own level of parametres (R, overall Tangent, curve length S1+L+S2, etc.) I am more concerned about the fact that drawings do not require all that level of detail for construction purposes these days because any stakeout parameter can be calculated on the spot given the basic geometry parametres and location. I believe those days are gone where we had to include every single parameter on the plan just to make sure that the construction crews can use any of the methods available (to memory) at the time to transfer the design to the field. |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with -n - curve number |Third| - Minor IPs labelled with |Fourth| - I will look for any "official" Australian examples to send. Regs Rad "Michael Rogerson" wrote in message news:40acdebd$1_2@newsprd01... > We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of > intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to get > some examples and feedback. This is lengthy. > > In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label that > allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this can > contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect point, > and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what is > selected. > > So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can apply/select > the following: > > 1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents actually > meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual > tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them, including > a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral. > > 2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two tangents, a > tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label information > about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as > information about the Spirals and Curve. > > 3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and curve, > or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free. In > this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent > intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the Curve. > > Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment > Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but this does > include "Tangent-Intersect" labels. > > So here are questions and requests: > > |First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a series of > compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals. This > could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what sort of > general rule do you use to "group" these together? > > |Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in order > to identify a given group > > |Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities within a > group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group > > |Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many, and as > varied as you can come up with. > > You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any feedback is > appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them to me > directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is > michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and thanks, > > Mike > > Autodesk, Inc. > Michael C. Rogerson, PE > Product Designer - Program Manager > ISD Civil Engineering Software Development > >
*Michael Rogerson
Message 3 of 4 (163 Views)

Re: Need Examples - Curve Group and PI labels/Tables

05-24-2004 01:44 PM in reply to: *Michael Rogerson
Excellent, clear and detailed reply Rad. The only question - what do you mean by " T " in your reply to |Second|: "> |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number" Very helpful thanks and if you have any example, please do share. regards, Mike "Rad Lazic" wrote in message news:40ada33e_2@newsprd01... > |First| - The easiest way to describe this is by the fact that the > mathematical definition of the chlothoid curve has both the negative and the > positive part. The inflexion point between the two is where radius changes > sign (e.g. left to right). We know that the rate of change for radius value > is used as the clothoid parameter (A). > > It is the fact that what radius is to the circular curve, the parameter A is > to the clothoid curve. > > Knowing this, it makes sense to treat the transition curves between two > adjacent S curves as one curve with a single inflexion point where radius > changes sign. This requires that there is the constant parameter A all along > that curve starting as outgoing spiral from the first curve and ending as > incoming spiral to the second curve. This has a few vehicle dynamics > advantages - the word there is "SAFETY". > > Having said all this - we can use the rule where we group those elements as > "curve, spiral,curve,spiral,curve..." regardless of if they are S or > compound C curves because there is always one spiral curve between the two > circular curves with the changing sign(S-curve) or not (C-curve). > > This does not mean that we do not need Tangent IP labels, just that they can > describe the "little IPs" for individual elements (spirals, arcs) or the > "big IPs" intesecting tangents running through inflection points of the > adjacent curves. Little IPs will require different parametres (styles) for > spirals or arcs and big IPs will have their own level of parametres (R, > overall Tangent, curve length S1+L+S2, etc.) > > I am more concerned about the fact that drawings do not require all that > level of detail for construction purposes these days because any stakeout > parameter can be calculated on the spot given the basic geometry parametres > and location. I believe those days are gone where we had to include every > single parameter on the plan just to make sure that the construction crews > can use any of the methods available (to memory) at the time to transfer the > design to the field. > > |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number > > |Third| - Minor IPs labelled with > > |Fourth| - I will look for any "official" Australian examples to send. > > Regs > > Rad > > "Michael Rogerson" wrote in message > news:40acdebd$1_2@newsprd01... > > We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of > > intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to get > > some examples and feedback. This is lengthy. > > > > In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label that > > allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this can > > contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect > point, > > and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what is > > selected. > > > > So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can apply/select > > the following: > > > > 1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents > actually > > meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual > > tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them, > including > > a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral. > > > > 2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two tangents, > a > > tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label > information > > about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as > > information about the Spirals and Curve. > > > > 3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and > curve, > > or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free. In > > this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent > > intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the Curve. > > > > Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment > > Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but this > does > > include "Tangent-Intersect" labels. > > > > So here are questions and requests: > > > > |First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a series > of > > compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals. This > > could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what sort > of > > general rule do you use to "group" these together? > > > > |Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in > order > > to identify a given group > > > > |Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities within > a > > group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group > > > > |Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many, and > as > > varied as you can come up with. > > > > You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any feedback is > > appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them to me > > directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is > > michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and thanks, > > > > Mike > > > > Autodesk, Inc. > > Michael C. Rogerson, PE > > Product Designer - Program Manager > > ISD Civil Engineering Software Development > > > > > >
*Rad Lazic
Message 4 of 4 (163 Views)

Re: Need Examples - Curve Group and PI labels/Tables

05-25-2004 10:04 PM in reply to: *Michael Rogerson
Hi Michael, Sorry, I was out and about again... T in that label stands for just one of the possible ways to label the Tangent-Tangent intersection e.g. T-1, T-2, etc. This could be any letter/label combination including IP-1, IP-2 etc. Regs Rad "Michael Rogerson" wrote in message news:40b25eb5$1_3@newsprd01... > Excellent, clear and detailed reply Rad. The only question - what do you > mean by " T " in your reply to |Second|: > > "> |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - > descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number" > > Very helpful thanks and if you have any example, please do share. > > regards, > Mike > > > "Rad Lazic" wrote in message > news:40ada33e_2@newsprd01... > > |First| - The easiest way to describe this is by the fact that the > > mathematical definition of the chlothoid curve has both the negative and > the > > positive part. The inflexion point between the two is where radius changes > > sign (e.g. left to right). We know that the rate of change for radius > value > > is used as the clothoid parameter (A). > > > > It is the fact that what radius is to the circular curve, the parameter A > is > > to the clothoid curve. > > > > Knowing this, it makes sense to treat the transition curves between two > > adjacent S curves as one curve with a single inflexion point where radius > > changes sign. This requires that there is the constant parameter A all > along > > that curve starting as outgoing spiral from the first curve and ending as > > incoming spiral to the second curve. This has a few vehicle dynamics > > advantages - the word there is "SAFETY". > > > > Having said all this - we can use the rule where we group those elements > as > > "curve, spiral,curve,spiral,curve..." regardless of if they are S or > > compound C curves because there is always one spiral curve between the two > > circular curves with the changing sign(S-curve) or not (C-curve). > > > > This does not mean that we do not need Tangent IP labels, just that they > can > > describe the "little IPs" for individual elements (spirals, arcs) or the > > "big IPs" intesecting tangents running through inflection points of the > > adjacent curves. Little IPs will require different parametres (styles) for > > spirals or arcs and big IPs will have their own level of parametres (R, > > overall Tangent, curve length S1+L+S2, etc.) > > > > I am more concerned about the fact that drawings do not require all that > > level of detail for construction purposes these days because any stakeout > > parameter can be calculated on the spot given the basic geometry > parametres > > and location. I believe those days are gone where we had to include every > > single parameter on the plan just to make sure that the construction crews > > can use any of the methods available (to memory) at the time to transfer > the > > design to the field. > > > > |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - > descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number > > > > |Third| - Minor IPs labelled with > > > > |Fourth| - I will look for any "official" Australian examples to send. > > > > Regs > > > > Rad > > > > "Michael Rogerson" wrote in > message > > news:40acdebd$1_2@newsprd01... > > > We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of > > > intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to > get > > > some examples and feedback. This is lengthy. > > > > > > In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label that > > > allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this can > > > contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect > > point, > > > and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what is > > > selected. > > > > > > So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can > apply/select > > > the following: > > > > > > 1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents > > actually > > > meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual > > > tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them, > > including > > > a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral. > > > > > > 2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two > tangents, > > a > > > tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label > > information > > > about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as > > > information about the Spirals and Curve. > > > > > > 3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and > > curve, > > > or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free. > In > > > this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent > > > intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the > Curve. > > > > > > Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment > > > Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but this > > does > > > include "Tangent-Intersect" labels. > > > > > > So here are questions and requests: > > > > > > |First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a series > > of > > > compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals. This > > > could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what > sort > > of > > > general rule do you use to "group" these together? > > > > > > |Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in > > order > > > to identify a given group > > > > > > |Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities > within > > a > > > group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group > > > > > > |Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many, and > > as > > > varied as you can come up with. > > > > > > You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any feedback > is > > > appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them to > me > > > directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is > > > michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and thanks, > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > Autodesk, Inc. > > > Michael C. Rogerson, PE > > > Product Designer - Program Manager > > > ISD Civil Engineering Software Development > > > > > > > > > > > >

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