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157 Views, 3 Replies

05-20-2004 09:37 AM

We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of
intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to get
some examples and feedback. This is lengthy.
In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label that
allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this can
contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect point,
and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what is
selected.
So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can apply/select
the following:
1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents actually
meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual
tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them, including
a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral.
2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two tangents, a
tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label information
about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as
information about the Spirals and Curve.
3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and curve,
or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free. In
this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent
intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the Curve.
Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment
Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but this does
include "Tangent-Intersect" labels.
So here are questions and requests:
|First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a series of
compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals. This
could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what sort of
general rule do you use to "group" these together?
|Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in order
to identify a given group
|Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities within a
group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group
|Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many, and as
varied as you can come up with.
You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any feedback is
appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them to me
directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is
michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and thanks,
Mike
Autodesk, Inc.
Michael C. Rogerson, PE
Product Designer - Program Manager
ISD Civil Engineering Software Development

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05-20-2004 11:35 PM in reply to:
*Michael Rogerson

|First| - The easiest way to describe this is by the fact that the
mathematical definition of the chlothoid curve has both the negative and the
positive part. The inflexion point between the two is where radius changes
sign (e.g. left to right). We know that the rate of change for radius value
is used as the clothoid parameter (A).
It is the fact that what radius is to the circular curve, the parameter A is
to the clothoid curve.
Knowing this, it makes sense to treat the transition curves between two
adjacent S curves as one curve with a single inflexion point where radius
changes sign. This requires that there is the constant parameter A all along
that curve starting as outgoing spiral from the first curve and ending as
incoming spiral to the second curve. This has a few vehicle dynamics
advantages - the word there is "SAFETY".
Having said all this - we can use the rule where we group those elements as
"curve, spiral,curve,spiral,curve..." regardless of if they are S or
compound C curves because there is always one spiral curve between the two
circular curves with the changing sign(S-curve) or not (C-curve).
This does not mean that we do not need Tangent IP labels, just that they can
describe the "little IPs" for individual elements (spirals, arcs) or the
"big IPs" intesecting tangents running through inflection points of the
adjacent curves. Little IPs will require different parametres (styles) for
spirals or arcs and big IPs will have their own level of parametres (R,
overall Tangent, curve length S1+L+S2, etc.)
I am more concerned about the fact that drawings do not require all that
level of detail for construction purposes these days because any stakeout
parameter can be calculated on the spot given the basic geometry parametres
and location. I believe those days are gone where we had to include every
single parameter on the plan just to make sure that the construction crews
can use any of the methods available (to memory) at the time to transfer the
design to the field.
|Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with -n - curve number
|Third| - Minor IPs labelled with
|Fourth| - I will look for any "official" Australian examples to send.
Regs
Rad
"Michael Rogerson" wrote in message
news:40acdebd$1_2@newsprd01...
> We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of
> intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to get
> some examples and feedback. This is lengthy.
>
> In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label that
> allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this can
> contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect
point,
> and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what is
> selected.
>
> So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can apply/select
> the following:
>
> 1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents
actually
> meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual
> tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them,
including
> a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral.
>
> 2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two tangents,
a
> tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label
information
> about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as
> information about the Spirals and Curve.
>
> 3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and
curve,
> or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free. In
> this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent
> intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the Curve.
>
> Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment
> Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but this
does
> include "Tangent-Intersect" labels.
>
> So here are questions and requests:
>
> |First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a series
of
> compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals. This
> could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what sort
of
> general rule do you use to "group" these together?
>
> |Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in
order
> to identify a given group
>
> |Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities within
a
> group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group
>
> |Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many, and
as
> varied as you can come up with.
>
> You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any feedback is
> appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them to me
> directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is
> michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and thanks,
>
> Mike
>
> Autodesk, Inc.
> Michael C. Rogerson, PE
> Product Designer - Program Manager
> ISD Civil Engineering Software Development
>
>

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05-24-2004 01:44 PM in reply to:
*Michael Rogerson

Excellent, clear and detailed reply Rad. The only question - what do you
mean by " T " in your reply to |Second|:
"> |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number"
Very helpful thanks and if you have any example, please do share.
regards,
Mike
"Rad Lazic" wrote in message
news:40ada33e_2@newsprd01...
> |First| - The easiest way to describe this is by the fact that the
> mathematical definition of the chlothoid curve has both the negative and
the
> positive part. The inflexion point between the two is where radius changes
> sign (e.g. left to right). We know that the rate of change for radius
value
> is used as the clothoid parameter (A).
>
> It is the fact that what radius is to the circular curve, the parameter A
is
> to the clothoid curve.
>
> Knowing this, it makes sense to treat the transition curves between two
> adjacent S curves as one curve with a single inflexion point where radius
> changes sign. This requires that there is the constant parameter A all
along
> that curve starting as outgoing spiral from the first curve and ending as
> incoming spiral to the second curve. This has a few vehicle dynamics
> advantages - the word there is "SAFETY".
>
> Having said all this - we can use the rule where we group those elements
as
> "curve, spiral,curve,spiral,curve..." regardless of if they are S or
> compound C curves because there is always one spiral curve between the two
> circular curves with the changing sign(S-curve) or not (C-curve).
>
> This does not mean that we do not need Tangent IP labels, just that they
can
> describe the "little IPs" for individual elements (spirals, arcs) or the
> "big IPs" intesecting tangents running through inflection points of the
> adjacent curves. Little IPs will require different parametres (styles) for
> spirals or arcs and big IPs will have their own level of parametres (R,
> overall Tangent, curve length S1+L+S2, etc.)
>
> I am more concerned about the fact that drawings do not require all that
> level of detail for construction purposes these days because any stakeout
> parameter can be calculated on the spot given the basic geometry
parametres
> and location. I believe those days are gone where we had to include every
> single parameter on the plan just to make sure that the construction crews
> can use any of the methods available (to memory) at the time to transfer
the
> design to the field.
>
> |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number
>
> |Third| - Minor IPs labelled with
>
> |Fourth| - I will look for any "official" Australian examples to send.
>
> Regs
>
> Rad
>
> "Michael Rogerson" wrote in
message
> news:40acdebd$1_2@newsprd01...
> > We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of
> > intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to
get
> > some examples and feedback. This is lengthy.
> >
> > In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label that
> > allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this can
> > contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect
> point,
> > and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what is
> > selected.
> >
> > So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can
apply/select
> > the following:
> >
> > 1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents
> actually
> > meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual
> > tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them,
> including
> > a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral.
> >
> > 2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two
tangents,
> a
> > tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label
> information
> > about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as
> > information about the Spirals and Curve.
> >
> > 3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and
> curve,
> > or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free.
In
> > this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent
> > intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the
Curve.
> >
> > Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment
> > Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but this
> does
> > include "Tangent-Intersect" labels.
> >
> > So here are questions and requests:
> >
> > |First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a series
> of
> > compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals. This
> > could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what
sort
> of
> > general rule do you use to "group" these together?
> >
> > |Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in
> order
> > to identify a given group
> >
> > |Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities
within
> a
> > group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group
> >
> > |Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many, and
> as
> > varied as you can come up with.
> >
> > You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any feedback
is
> > appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them to
me
> > directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is
> > michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and thanks,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Autodesk, Inc.
> > Michael C. Rogerson, PE
> > Product Designer - Program Manager
> > ISD Civil Engineering Software Development
> >
> >
>
>

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05-25-2004 10:04 PM in reply to:
*Michael Rogerson

Hi Michael,
Sorry, I was out and about again...
T in that label stands for just one of the possible ways to label the
Tangent-Tangent intersection e.g. T-1, T-2, etc.
This could be any letter/label combination including IP-1, IP-2 etc.
Regs
Rad
"Michael Rogerson" wrote in message
news:40b25eb5$1_3@newsprd01...
> Excellent, clear and detailed reply Rad. The only question - what do you
> mean by " T " in your reply to |Second|:
>
> "> |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - > descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number"
>
> Very helpful thanks and if you have any example, please do share.
>
> regards,
> Mike
>
>
> "Rad Lazic" wrote in message
> news:40ada33e_2@newsprd01...
> > |First| - The easiest way to describe this is by the fact that the
> > mathematical definition of the chlothoid curve has both the negative and
> the
> > positive part. The inflexion point between the two is where radius
changes
> > sign (e.g. left to right). We know that the rate of change for radius
> value
> > is used as the clothoid parameter (A).
> >
> > It is the fact that what radius is to the circular curve, the parameter
A
> is
> > to the clothoid curve.
> >
> > Knowing this, it makes sense to treat the transition curves between two
> > adjacent S curves as one curve with a single inflexion point where
radius
> > changes sign. This requires that there is the constant parameter A all
> along
> > that curve starting as outgoing spiral from the first curve and ending
as
> > incoming spiral to the second curve. This has a few vehicle dynamics
> > advantages - the word there is "SAFETY".
> >
> > Having said all this - we can use the rule where we group those elements
> as
> > "curve, spiral,curve,spiral,curve..." regardless of if they are S or
> > compound C curves because there is always one spiral curve between the
two
> > circular curves with the changing sign(S-curve) or not (C-curve).
> >
> > This does not mean that we do not need Tangent IP labels, just that they
> can
> > describe the "little IPs" for individual elements (spirals, arcs) or the
> > "big IPs" intesecting tangents running through inflection points of the
> > adjacent curves. Little IPs will require different parametres (styles)
for
> > spirals or arcs and big IPs will have their own level of parametres (R,
> > overall Tangent, curve length S1+L+S2, etc.)
> >
> > I am more concerned about the fact that drawings do not require all that
> > level of detail for construction purposes these days because any
stakeout
> > parameter can be calculated on the spot given the basic geometry
> parametres
> > and location. I believe those days are gone where we had to include
every
> > single parameter on the plan just to make sure that the construction
crews
> > can use any of the methods available (to memory) at the time to transfer
> the
> > design to the field.
> >
> > |Second| - My experience is: major IPs labelled with - > descriptor, could be a T>n - curve number
> >
> > |Third| - Minor IPs labelled with
> >
> > |Fourth| - I will look for any "official" Australian examples to send.
> >
> > Regs
> >
> > Rad
> >
> > "Michael Rogerson" wrote in
> message
> > news:40acdebd$1_2@newsprd01...
> > > We're researching requirements for a feature to create PI (point of
> > > intersection) tables in a future release of Civil3D and were hoping to
> get
> > > some examples and feedback. This is lengthy.
> > >
> > > In Civil3D (current shipping), we have a "Tangent Intersect" label
that
> > > allows you to annotate quite a few things. The label style for this
can
> > > contain information about various parameters of the Tangent Intersect
> > point,
> > > and Spiral 1, Curve or Spiral 2, depending on what you have and what
is
> > > selected.
> > >
> > > So, using the "Manual" method of adding these labels, you can
> apply/select
> > > the following:
> > >
> > > 1) Select an actual tangent-tangent intersect, where two tangents
> > actually
> > > meet end-to-end. In this case, you can label properties of the actual
> > > tangent intersect point, plus any free curves placed between them,
> > including
> > > a simple Curve or a Spiral-Curve-Spiral.
> > >
> > > 2) Select a free Spiral-Curve-Spiral (SCS) entity - between two
> tangents,
> > a
> > > tangent and curve, or two curves. In this case, you can label
> > information
> > > about the "Virtual" tangent intersection point for the SCS, as well as
> > > information about the Spirals and Curve.
> > >
> > > 3) Select an individual Curve - between two tangents, a tangent and
> > curve,
> > > or two curves. The curve can be of any type: Fixed, Floating or Free.
> In
> > > this case, you can label information about the "Virtual" tangent
> > > intersection point for the Curve, as well as information about the
> Curve.
> > >
> > > Note that we already have a "Curve Table", "Spiral Table" and "Segment
> > > Table" that lets you include those entities in a table format, but
this
> > does
> > > include "Tangent-Intersect" labels.
> > >
> > > So here are questions and requests:
> > >
> > > |First| - There are some strange exceptions, where you may have a
series
> > of
> > > compound Curves back-to-back, possibly including compound spirals.
This
> > > could be 1 to "n" number of curves and spirals. In those cases, what
> sort
> > of
> > > general rule do you use to "group" these together?
> > >
> > > |Second| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the groups, in
> > order
> > > to identify a given group
> > >
> > > |Third| - What sort of annotation do you use to "tag" the entities
> within
> > a
> > > group, in order to identify a singular entity within a given group
> > >
> > > |Fourth| - Table formats! We need and appreciate examples, as many,
and
> > as
> > > varied as you can come up with.
> > >
> > > You can reply to the group to any or all of the questions, any
feedback
> is
> > > appreciated. However, but for example attachments, please send them
to
> me
> > > directly, to keep posted attachments at a minumum. Address is
> > > michael.rogerson -PLUS, add autodesk.com to the end. Cheers and
thanks,
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Autodesk, Inc.
> > > Michael C. Rogerson, PE
> > > Product Designer - Program Manager
> > > ISD Civil Engineering Software Development
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

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