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I know I'll be taged a Flammer for this but I don't care at this point

147 REPLIES 147
Reply
Message 1 of 148
Anonymous
3989 Views, 147 Replies

I know I'll be taged a Flammer for this but I don't care at this point


Here is a snippet from my latest "send erro
report"

 

@#%TYW&*@(Y*IU^WQ*&^

 

This product sucks. You can't tell me you
developers are not bombing out, getting hungup and generaly not getting this
application to work. you'ld be hard pressed to convince me.

face=Arial size=2>

--
Joe

 

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002,
sp 2
hp workstation
xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In
memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

 

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is
-
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken
from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar
page
*****************************************************************************************
147 REPLIES 147
Message 41 of 148
Matt.Anderson
in reply to: Anonymous

I try to be... 😉
Matthew Anderson, PE CFM
Product Manager
Autodesk (Innovyze)
Message 42 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Joe, and others,

My problem with C3D is two fold - overhead and interoperability. Overhead:
staff training, setup, drawing management, data management, work-around
management, hardware resources, crashes, data loss and dealing with yearly
upgrades. Interoperability: inability to communicate via dwg with others;
inability to stream data in-house dwg data year to year because of constant
changing upgrades.

From a civil company owner / designer / user's perspective - the program is
just too complex to adopt for production. It is too complex from a
programming view - too many variables with too many interactions which
cause too many crashes and too often the inability to track down the their
complex interactive causes. It is too complex from an user operability
interface. Too much training, too much frustration, too much brain frying
while trying to apply the tool in the only proactive way it will work.
Civil grading is the easiest of all civil disciplines. C3D has turned civil
design into rocket science. When all the stars align with a super-trained,
with a well paid guru (who has enough experience to know all the possible
pitfalls and work-arounds) at the controls of a just-right, expensive piece
of hardware it can look it impressive. It is just a whole lot of company
expense for the same civil product we have been turning out for decades.

This is not a rant - I have no beef with AutoDesk or it's resellers. This is
not spam - I am not trying to persuade anybody to jump ship to another
product. And I am sure there are some on this newsgroup who will defend its
productivity - they have to after all that they have invested in making it
work. It just is not for everybody and every situation. Just a view from
an outsider, who has managed to stay productive and profitable by staying
away from C3D. And I sleep good knowing my civil data is still going to be
there tomorrow.

sc
Message 43 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Very well stated sc



Reply From: Steve Cannon
Date: Jun/24/08 - 13:38 (PDT) NEW!

Re: I know I'll be taged a Flammer for this but I don't care at this point
Joe, and others,

My problem with C3D is two fold - overhead and interoperability. Overhead:
staff training, setup, drawing management, data management, work-around
management, hardware resources, crashes, data loss and dealing with yearly
upgrades. Interoperability: inability to communicate via dwg with others;
inability to stream data in-house dwg data year to year because of constant
changing upgrades.

From a civil company owner / designer / user's perspective - the program is
just too complex to adopt for production. It is too complex from a
programming view - too many variables with too many interactions which
cause too many crashes and too often the inability to track down the their
complex interactive causes. It is too complex from an user operability
interface. Too much training, too much frustration, too much brain frying
while trying to apply the tool in the only proactive way it will work.
Civil grading is the easiest of all civil disciplines. C3D has turned civil
design into rocket science. When all the stars align with a super-trained,
with a well paid guru (who has enough experience to know all the possible
pitfalls and work-arounds) at the controls of a just-right, expensive piece
of hardware it can look it impressive. It is just a whole lot of company
expense for the same civil product we have been turning out for decades.

This is not a rant - I have no beef with AutoDesk or it's resellers. This is
not spam - I am not trying to persuade anybody to jump ship to another
product. And I am sure there are some on this newsgroup who will defend its
productivity - they have to after all that they have invested in making it
work. It just is not for everybody and every situation. Just a view from
an outsider, who has managed to stay productive and profitable by staying
away from C3D. And I sleep good knowing my civil data is still going to be
there tomorrow.

sc
Message 44 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

If you can straighten me out I would be much obliged.

--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
wrote in message news:5965252@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe -

Wow. I just read your post and the number of additional posts. There are a
lot of comments to and fro.

I noticed your profile indicates 2008. Do you have the SP2? Which SP2
service pack do you have? (There have at least been three different ones -
that I know of)

Your intial post - yes - I have sent a few of those CER reports. That is
usually the second time I do something and crash.

I have had a number of defects identified and confirmed with support.

Am I getting stuff done - absolutely!

Do I get frustrated - yes! Do I learn from my mistakes - I try too!

If you need some help - I will be glad to look at your drawing.

Matthew Anderson, PE
anderson at jaseng dot com
Civil 3d 2009 / 2008 LINZ
Message 45 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

With all this said, are any of you giving up on Civil3d?
Message 46 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I won't buy into the hardware excuse. Many of us have top end machines and
still have stability issues.

"Jeff Mishler" wrote in message
news:5965288@discussion.autodesk.com...
It very well may be partially the fault of the software. Hardware plays a
key role also. Last I heard, Joe was attempting to tackle this beast with a
P4 & 1gb RAM.

I know that the one drawing of Joe's that he shared with me, he was getting
crash after crash with it. I loaded it and made the same edits he was
attempting without one problem. I am certain that the hardware made the
difference, and mine isn't all that great..... AMD Athlon 64x2 dula core
5000+, 4gb RAM, nVidia GeForce 8600 w/512mb ram......a slightly modified
$500 Gateway box.



"donnieworld" wrote in message news:5965272@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm sure Joe is learning, but its not his mistakes. It is the software. He
must learn to work around Civil 3D. That is the key difference here. It's
nice for some of the best to be able to workaround the short comings ...
each user is facing the same issues and not navigating as successfully.

This is not a small issue.
Message 47 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Yup.
wrote in message news:5965385@discussion.autodesk.com...
With all this said, are any of you giving up on Civil3d?
Message 48 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

If its all hardware then that would be great news, but 4 years old IMHO its
not like I'm trying to run it on an old IBM xt with a 5" DOS. Come on
jpostlewait! Experience With LDT a hindrance.... So 15 years of LDT ,SDSK,
Eagle Point, Microstation doesn't give anyone a leg-up to learn this
program? I would think somewhere along the way a certain amount of intuition
and knowledge of algorithms would have seeped into my thick skull making it
a bit easier but I must be wrong judging from the tenor of the above
responses. You must be onto something there so I'll just shrivel away to my
c3d experienced challenged world and keep trying till it somehow penetrates
my dense LDT encrusted mind.


Oh yeh Thanks

--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
wrote in message news:5965335@discussion.autodesk.com...
So Joe honestly you haven't had any training and you're running a high
powered application on a 4 year old computer and it's the applications
fault?

Experience with LDT is more of a hindrance than a help learning C3D.
Message 49 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I've got one for ya, I just got up to get a cup of coffee, and when I came back C3d had crashed.... apparently its so buggy, get coffee will make it crash 🙂
Message 50 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Steve, Thank you! your rational prose has quelled my stress. Thank you.

Joe


--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
news:5965378@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe, and others,

My problem with C3D is two fold - overhead and interoperability. Overhead:
staff training, setup, drawing management, data management, work-around
management, hardware resources, crashes, data loss and dealing with yearly
upgrades. Interoperability: inability to communicate via dwg with others;
inability to stream data in-house dwg data year to year because of constant
changing upgrades.

From a civil company owner / designer / user's perspective - the program is
just too complex to adopt for production. It is too complex from a
programming view - too many variables with too many interactions which
cause too many crashes and too often the inability to track down the their
complex interactive causes. It is too complex from an user operability
interface. Too much training, too much frustration, too much brain frying
while trying to apply the tool in the only proactive way it will work.
Civil grading is the easiest of all civil disciplines. C3D has turned civil
design into rocket science. When all the stars align with a super-trained,
with a well paid guru (who has enough experience to know all the possible
pitfalls and work-arounds) at the controls of a just-right, expensive piece
of hardware it can look it impressive. It is just a whole lot of company
expense for the same civil product we have been turning out for decades.

This is not a rant - I have no beef with AutoDesk or it's resellers. This is
not spam - I am not trying to persuade anybody to jump ship to another
product. And I am sure there are some on this newsgroup who will defend its
productivity - they have to after all that they have invested in making it
work. It just is not for everybody and every situation. Just a view from
an outsider, who has managed to stay productive and profitable by staying
away from C3D. And I sleep good knowing my civil data is still going to be
there tomorrow.

sc
Message 51 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

No.... But we have the money here, and I have had the time to go through the training, and I have had time to 'work out' some of the transitional issues. We are truely spoiled in that sense with public money. However, this is ongoing. sc put it best, and I can back him up what he was saying. Private companies can't afford the overhead associated with transitioning to Civil. Most if not all of our consultants have been struggling horribly with Civil. It's extremely discouraging. All the comments I read in this post echo the majority. You should see our regoinal User Group Meetings, sheesh.....
Message 52 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Excellent post Steve! Where have you been hiding? It is good to see you
here again.

--
John Mayo, PE
Project Engineer
Conklin Associates
Ramsey, NJ

Civil 3D 2008 SP2, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2008
P-IV at 3.5 GHz
2 GB Ram
Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram
"Joe Bouza" wrote in message
news:5965407@discussion.autodesk.com...
Steve, Thank you! your rational prose has quelled my stress. Thank you.

Joe


--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
news:5965378@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe, and others,

My problem with C3D is two fold - overhead and interoperability. Overhead:
staff training, setup, drawing management, data management, work-around
management, hardware resources, crashes, data loss and dealing with yearly
upgrades. Interoperability: inability to communicate via dwg with others;
inability to stream data in-house dwg data year to year because of constant
changing upgrades.

From a civil company owner / designer / user's perspective - the program is
just too complex to adopt for production. It is too complex from a
programming view - too many variables with too many interactions which
cause too many crashes and too often the inability to track down the their
complex interactive causes. It is too complex from an user operability
interface. Too much training, too much frustration, too much brain frying
while trying to apply the tool in the only proactive way it will work.
Civil grading is the easiest of all civil disciplines. C3D has turned civil
design into rocket science. When all the stars align with a super-trained,
with a well paid guru (who has enough experience to know all the possible
pitfalls and work-arounds) at the controls of a just-right, expensive piece
of hardware it can look it impressive. It is just a whole lot of company
expense for the same civil product we have been turning out for decades.

This is not a rant - I have no beef with AutoDesk or it's resellers. This is
not spam - I am not trying to persuade anybody to jump ship to another
product. And I am sure there are some on this newsgroup who will defend its
productivity - they have to after all that they have invested in making it
work. It just is not for everybody and every situation. Just a view from
an outsider, who has managed to stay productive and profitable by staying
away from C3D. And I sleep good knowing my civil data is still going to be
there tomorrow.

sc
Message 53 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

John,
Have you gone back to LDT and tried to make a road template in LDT? Every time I have too, I praise the lord for C3D! (Don't mean to get religious or anything) Can you say polylines?

But oh my when I have to go back to LDT to do anything but plot it is so painful!

Have we all forgot how long it takes just to make one simple design change in LDT when compared to C3D! Oh my I ache whenever I get the dreaded LDT support call and have to start up the old beast!

Just today I have a support call from someone on how to do transitions in LDT! I hurt just thinking about how much easier it is in C3D! I aimed them toward a couple of Tutorials! It would take 2 hrs on Webx and a lot of tongue bitting to get them thought it.......... C3D can we say set Targets...... Oh and I still need to do a webex with them in the morning to just show them what files in the project I'm going to need to fix their crossing template problem! Transitions in LDT really does bit the big one when compared to Assemblies and targets!

In three years I have only needed to training LDT 3 times! Thank God for no more than 3! And each time was more painful than the one before! (Please Lord no more!)

Bill Neuhauser P.E.

C3D is here to stay boys (and girls), might as well jump on and enjoy the ride! Ye haw!
Message 54 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Joe,

Are you saying that 2008 was better than 2009, or just that they have yet to
get everything fixed before they add new stuff to break? I have yet to
install 2009, so I would like to know if I should wait for the service pack,
or the one after that... At least 2008 is better than 2007.

Brad

"Joe Bouza" wrote in message
news:5965407@discussion.autodesk.com...
Steve, Thank you! your rational prose has quelled my stress. Thank you.

Joe


--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
news:5965378@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe, and others,

My problem with C3D is two fold - overhead and interoperability. Overhead:
staff training, setup, drawing management, data management, work-around
management, hardware resources, crashes, data loss and dealing with yearly
upgrades. Interoperability: inability to communicate via dwg with others;
inability to stream data in-house dwg data year to year because of constant
changing upgrades.

From a civil company owner / designer / user's perspective - the program is
just too complex to adopt for production. It is too complex from a
programming view - too many variables with too many interactions which
cause too many crashes and too often the inability to track down the their
complex interactive causes. It is too complex from an user operability
interface. Too much training, too much frustration, too much brain frying
while trying to apply the tool in the only proactive way it will work.
Civil grading is the easiest of all civil disciplines. C3D has turned civil
design into rocket science. When all the stars align with a super-trained,
with a well paid guru (who has enough experience to know all the possible
pitfalls and work-arounds) at the controls of a just-right, expensive piece
of hardware it can look it impressive. It is just a whole lot of company
expense for the same civil product we have been turning out for decades.

This is not a rant - I have no beef with AutoDesk or it's resellers. This is
not spam - I am not trying to persuade anybody to jump ship to another
product. And I am sure there are some on this newsgroup who will defend its
productivity - they have to after all that they have invested in making it
work. It just is not for everybody and every situation. Just a view from
an outsider, who has managed to stay productive and profitable by staying
away from C3D. And I sleep good knowing my civil data is still going to be
there tomorrow.

sc
Message 55 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

09 is better if you don't work on files from previous releases (as per a few
user posts here), 08 is much better than 07.

--
John Mayo, PE
Project Engineer
Conklin Associates
Ramsey, NJ

Civil 3D 2008 SP2, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2008
P-IV at 3.5 GHz
2 GB Ram
Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram
"Brad" wrote in message
news:5965422@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe,

Are you saying that 2008 was better than 2009, or just that they have yet to
get everything fixed before they add new stuff to break? I have yet to
install 2009, so I would like to know if I should wait for the service pack,
or the one after that... At least 2008 is better than 2007.

Brad

"Joe Bouza" wrote in message
news:5965407@discussion.autodesk.com...
Steve, Thank you! your rational prose has quelled my stress. Thank you.

Joe


--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
news:5965378@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe, and others,

My problem with C3D is two fold - overhead and interoperability. Overhead:
staff training, setup, drawing management, data management, work-around
management, hardware resources, crashes, data loss and dealing with yearly
upgrades. Interoperability: inability to communicate via dwg with others;
inability to stream data in-house dwg data year to year because of constant
changing upgrades.

From a civil company owner / designer / user's perspective - the program is
just too complex to adopt for production. It is too complex from a
programming view - too many variables with too many interactions which
cause too many crashes and too often the inability to track down the their
complex interactive causes. It is too complex from an user operability
interface. Too much training, too much frustration, too much brain frying
while trying to apply the tool in the only proactive way it will work.
Civil grading is the easiest of all civil disciplines. C3D has turned civil
design into rocket science. When all the stars align with a super-trained,
with a well paid guru (who has enough experience to know all the possible
pitfalls and work-arounds) at the controls of a just-right, expensive piece
of hardware it can look it impressive. It is just a whole lot of company
expense for the same civil product we have been turning out for decades.

This is not a rant - I have no beef with AutoDesk or it's resellers. This is
not spam - I am not trying to persuade anybody to jump ship to another
product. And I am sure there are some on this newsgroup who will defend its
productivity - they have to after all that they have invested in making it
work. It just is not for everybody and every situation. Just a view from
an outsider, who has managed to stay productive and profitable by staying
away from C3D. And I sleep good knowing my civil data is still going to be
there tomorrow.

sc
Message 56 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Being a troublemaker from way back myself, I have to ditto James' remarks.
I have learned (it took me a while!) that rants like this sure make you feel
better, but they don't really accomplish much for the reasons that James
cited. You are right that there are issues. If you are unhappy, I urge you
to evaluate other programs. If you can find a product out there that will
make you more productive, has fewer issues, and shows the most potential for
the future, you should buy it. I happen to think Civil 3D is the best thing
going right now, but I am not a 'fanboy' by any stretch of the imagination
(or a reseller!).

That said, anyone who has been responsible for supporting any Autodesk
product for the past 10 years can tell you horror stories of
pre-servicepacked versions. That's why many folks wait until at least SP1
and usually SP2 to deploy a new version. Trust me. You can avoid a lot of
stress by simply pretending that new versions are released in September.
From April-August you can beta test the software by 'playing' with it in
your spare time on copies of your data, the way beta testing is supposed to
be done. Your hair will remain in your head longer, and your blood pressure
will be much lower. One thing I have learned over the years is that
Autodesk does not really listen to the individual. They prioritize by
trying to add & fix things that will make the MOST people happy, not the
loudest or bluntest. If you buy a lot of licenses, that doesn't hurt,
either. If you find a reproduceable issue, report it along with the steps
(and drawing) necessary to reproduce it. If it's easy to reproduce, chances
are it's also easy for them to fix.

You are right about the 'different social aspect' in this group, though. I
finally started listening to what my mother said when I was growing up. (If
you don't have anything nice to say...)


Jon





"John Mayo" wrote in message
news:5965262@discussion.autodesk.com...
The silence from "those who know" is amazing in this post.

Joe has offered help to so many folks over the years without every expecting
anything in return. The silence IMO is therefore also rude. Even if Autodesk
is gonna spank you.

Something is also wrong if the stockholders are happy & the users are not.

Again just my honest thoughts.

I just saw your last post Joe. Funny how they call you without you calling
them. Again the silence is amazing.

--
John Mayo, PE
Project Engineer
Conklin Associates
Ramsey, NJ

Civil 3D 2008 SP2, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2008
P-IV at 3.5 GHz
2 GB Ram
Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram
"Joe Bouza" wrote in message
news:5965012@discussion.autodesk.com...
Here is a snippet from my latest "send erro report"

@#%TYW&*@(Y*IU^WQ*&^

This product sucks. You can't tell me you developers are not bombing out,
getting hungup and generaly not getting this application to work. you'ld be
hard pressed to convince me.

--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
Message 57 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Bill. I agree 100% and no I will not go back to LDT but I have never used
any application that performed like C3D and no other app has raised my blood
pressure so much.




--
John Mayo, PE
Project Engineer
Conklin Associates
Ramsey, NJ

Civil 3D 2008 SP2, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2008
P-IV at 3.5 GHz
2 GB Ram
Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram
wrote in message news:5965421@discussion.autodesk.com...
John,
Have you gone back to LDT and tried to make a road template in LDT? Every
time I have too, I praise the lord for C3D! (Don't mean to get religious or
anything) Can you say polylines?

But oh my when I have to go back to LDT to do anything but plot it is so
painful!

Have we all forgot how long it takes just to make one simple design change
in LDT when compared to C3D! Oh my I ache whenever I get the dreaded LDT
support call and have to start up the old beast!

Just today I have a support call from someone on how to do transitions in
LDT! I hurt just thinking about how much easier it is in C3D! I aimed them
toward a couple of Tutorials! It would take 2 hrs on Webx and a lot of
tongue bitting to get them thought it.......... C3D can we say set
Targets...... Oh and I still need to do a webex with them in the morning to
just show them what files in the project I'm going to need to fix their
crossing template problem! Transitions in LDT really does bit the big one
when compared to Assemblies and targets!

In three years I have only needed to training LDT 3 times! Thank God for no
more than 3! And each time was more painful than the one before! (Please
Lord no more!)

Bill Neuhauser P.E.

C3D is here to stay boys (and girls), might as well jump on and enjoy the
ride! Ye haw!
Message 58 of 148
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

>"if you don't work on file from previous releases"

Guess we will be staying with 2008 for a while longer. I missed the
discussion. What is the problem with migrating files from 2008?

Brad

"John Mayo" wrote in message
news:5965450@discussion.autodesk.com...
09 is better if you don't work on files from previous releases (as per a few
user posts here), 08 is much better than 07.

--
John Mayo, PE
Project Engineer
Conklin Associates
Ramsey, NJ

Civil 3D 2008 SP2, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2008
P-IV at 3.5 GHz
2 GB Ram
Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram
"Brad" wrote in message
news:5965422@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe,

Are you saying that 2008 was better than 2009, or just that they have yet to
get everything fixed before they add new stuff to break? I have yet to
install 2009, so I would like to know if I should wait for the service pack,
or the one after that... At least 2008 is better than 2007.

Brad

"Joe Bouza" wrote in message
news:5965407@discussion.autodesk.com...
Steve, Thank you! your rational prose has quelled my stress. Thank you.

Joe


--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002, sp 2
hp workstation xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
*****************************************************************************************
"Steve Cannon" wrote in message
news:5965378@discussion.autodesk.com...
Joe, and others,

My problem with C3D is two fold - overhead and interoperability. Overhead:
staff training, setup, drawing management, data management, work-around
management, hardware resources, crashes, data loss and dealing with yearly
upgrades. Interoperability: inability to communicate via dwg with others;
inability to stream data in-house dwg data year to year because of constant
changing upgrades.

From a civil company owner / designer / user's perspective - the program is
just too complex to adopt for production. It is too complex from a
programming view - too many variables with too many interactions which
cause too many crashes and too often the inability to track down the their
complex interactive causes. It is too complex from an user operability
interface. Too much training, too much frustration, too much brain frying
while trying to apply the tool in the only proactive way it will work.
Civil grading is the easiest of all civil disciplines. C3D has turned civil
design into rocket science. When all the stars align with a super-trained,
with a well paid guru (who has enough experience to know all the possible
pitfalls and work-arounds) at the controls of a just-right, expensive piece
of hardware it can look it impressive. It is just a whole lot of company
expense for the same civil product we have been turning out for decades.

This is not a rant - I have no beef with AutoDesk or it's resellers. This is
not spam - I am not trying to persuade anybody to jump ship to another
product. And I am sure there are some on this newsgroup who will defend its
productivity - they have to after all that they have invested in making it
work. It just is not for everybody and every situation. Just a view from
an outsider, who has managed to stay productive and profitable by staying
away from C3D. And I sleep good knowing my civil data is still going to be
there tomorrow.

sc
Message 59 of 148
Matt.Anderson
in reply to: Anonymous

Missed that one too...thats all I have been doing in 2009 - editing and recovering 2008 drawings...
Matthew Anderson, PE CFM
Product Manager
Autodesk (Innovyze)
Message 60 of 148
Sinc
in reply to: Anonymous

>> Are you saying that 2008 was better than 2009, or just that they have yet to get everything fixed before they add new stuff to break?


One of the biggest problems they have going on right now is many things were designed improperly, so now making any sort of change to the program is having a huge ripple effect through the entire thing.

They aren't really at the point where all they need to do is track down some bugs and fix them. They need to completely redesign many key aspects of C3D. If they don't, things won't change. Software built on a bad foundation is like a house built on a bad foundation. You can spend lots of extra time and money building really strong and thick walls, but it won't help the bad foundation. It merely creates a more-impressive failure when the whole thing crashes on the bad foundation.

Right now, Autodesk is busily adding things onto a bad foundation. That's a large part of why they can't manage to fix any of the big problems, and why every new release is a such a huge mass of bugs, and why they basically gave up trying to handle the interoperability issue. As they fix one problem or add a new feature, it ripples through other aspects of the program, and fixing those other pieces introduces yet more ripples, and so on. This eats up huge amounts of development time, and they still can't keep track of all the ripples. The only way to fix this is to fix the core problems in the design. Autodesk isn't doing that, because it would mean redoing a lot of work. But each year, they are adding more and more "stuff" on top of that bad foundation, and it's getting tougher and tougher to fix those core problems.

The rest of it falls squarely on the heels of bad software design processes. And a software design process is more than the development team. It's the company as a whole. Right now, parts of Autodesk are setting up other parts for failure. It puts people like the C3D design team in a bad position, where they get blamed for all these problems, but it's really the overall processes. The individual developers cannot fix the overall processes - only the people at the top can do that.

Unfortunately, the way things are going now, Autodesk will continue to bang away at C3D until they hit too many problems to solve, and some third-party comes up with a better solution. Then they will buy that other solution, and ditch C3D. Then we'll have the whole LDT to C3D transition all over again, except substitute different names for the products.

This is *NOT* the only way to design software. It is simply the way Autodesk is designing software. But they're not alone - many other software companies are in the same boat. If the construction industry had the same failure rate as the software industry, we'd all be living in tents and fording rivers, because we wouldn't trust ANY buildings or bridges. Companies are beginning to learn, slowly. There are more companies now with good software processes than there were 10 years ago. But the industry as a whole is still in its infancy, and has a lot to learn.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quux.biz
http://www.sincpac3d.com
Sinc

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