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Help About Earthworks Fill

36 REPLIES 36
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Message 1 of 37
edgardocalixto81
865 Views, 36 Replies

Help About Earthworks Fill

I am working in earthworks cut and fill project and the client wants us to submit an increment of 15cm filling to be tested for compaction before adding another 15cm until design levels.

 

I have known the fill area by subtracting the surfaces...my base point is EG(existing ground from topo) and target surface is the deisgn levels surface. I make analysis for the volume and set one color for cut ("-" values) and ranged the fill every 15cm.

 

But the client wants is starting from EG, fill an 15cm and show it in drawing for approval. The drawing will include AREA and Volume. It is seems like showing another file and editing the analysis to just one range and put it 0-15, however the outcome is not the same like in the master fill range i make. My understanding is..the lowest range (ex. 1.35-1.50) will be the highest fill therefore this is the one first to be filled on ground...please help me with this one.

 

I have seen this volume dashboard technique by adding a plane surface to be raised every increment which is the accurate idea but I can not gather the exact elevation of my volume (subtracted surface = EG - Des) contours. My lowest point is 15.661...so my expecting volume contour will all be higher than that elevation.How can I locate the true elevation of the volume contour, not like the 0, 0.15, 0.30....etc.? 

 

Please help...

36 REPLIES 36
Message 21 of 37
edgardocalixto81
in reply to: troma

Thanks Sir, I will put my base elevation and increase 15cm each layer. How can I get the dynamic area for this method Sir?

 

I will then re-submit my whole area computation.Smiley Frustrated

Message 22 of 37
troma
in reply to: edgardocalixto81

I don't really know about that.  Of course you could extract the contours for areas, but that's not dynamic.  I've never used surface tabels, but the answer could be in there somewhere.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 23 of 37
edgardocalixto81
in reply to: troma

The thing is, I will need to submit every layers for inspection. It wil be very helpful if I could have dynamic areas. Anyway in using contours Sir, I will make my contour in volume surface and just put my lowest elevation for the base elevation?

 

Too bad I dont have my civil 3d here..I guess I will need to re-evaluate all my drawings

Message 24 of 37
troma
in reply to: edgardocalixto81

I'm not exactly sure what you need to do.  I'm pretty sure that I don't know enough to help you with everything.

 

The thing is, I will need to submit every layers for inspection.

What does that mean?  You tell them the area, or the volume?  Or you submit a drawing?

 

It wil be very helpful if I could have dynamic areas.

I'm not sure if this is possible, but I imagine it should be.  This is outside of my experience.  I hope Neil, Joe or Brian who were posting earlier in this discussion can jump back in here and help you.  Or someone else.

 

Anyway in using contours Sir, I will make my contour in volume surface and just put my lowest elevation for the base elevation?

No.  You cannot use the volume surface to generate a contour that is horizontal in real life.  The contours on the volume surface represent the difference between the Base and Comparison.  The 1.00m contour represents the line of exactly 1m of fill requred, whether that is fill from 15.62 up to 16.62, or from 28.59 up to 29.59 etc.  If you need a contour that is actually horizontal you must use a regular surface, not a volume surface.  In this case you should use the existing ground surface (or possibly a copy with the existing topsoil removed?), since this represents the ground under the fill.  The contours will then represent increments of 15cm on the existing ground, which is where the fill will go.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 25 of 37
edgardocalixto81
in reply to: troma

These are the following submittals Sir.

 

What does that mean?  You tell them the area, or the volume?  Or you submit a drawing?

I will give an area of first layer (0-15cm) fill to the sureyor providing the levels and location, they will fill that area in site and ask for compaction test and checking from consultant. this drawing will be used in billing afterwards with corresponding volume of bacfill used. this procedure wil be repeated until the design level will be achieved.

 

No.  You cannot use the volume surface to generate a contour that is horizontal in real life.  The contours on the volume surface represent the difference between the Base and Comparison.  The 1.00m contour represents the line of exactly 1m of fill requred, whether that is fill from 15.62 up to 16.62, or from 28.59 up to 29.59 etc.  If you need a contour that is actually horizontal you must use a regular surface, not a volume surface.  In this case you should use the existing ground surface (or possibly a copy with the existing topsoil removed?), since this represents the ground under the fill.  The contours will then represent increments of 15cm on the existing ground, which is where the fill will go.

If i will use the existing surface Sir, when will i stop my countours since the design levels is not horizontal plane?

 

 

Message 26 of 37
troma
in reply to: edgardocalixto81

If i will use the existing surface Sir, when will i stop my countours since the design levels is not horizontal plane?

 

I hadn't thought of that.  Now that is an excellent question; you're making me sit here with my eyes closed trying to do this in my head.

 

Here's the best I've come up with:

You need to do the 15cm interval contours with a Base Elevation set for Both surfaces, the existing and proposed.  Do them in different colours so you can see what you're doing.

Extract the contours for both surfaces so you have polylines.

Then trim the polylines.  Find the existing contour polyline and the proposed contour polyline at the same elevation.  Trim them off to eachother to represent the area of fill.

If your proposed surface goes up above the existing, there will be an area of closed polylines showing this area.  This is your area of fill, and the existing contours at that elevation should be ignored.

 

I hope you have good visulaisation skills and can picture what you're doing.  I'm not really explaining it in enough detail for you to just blindly follow my instructions.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 27 of 37
edgardocalixto81
in reply to: troma

Thanks for the input Sir, I will follow then these ideas. For now what can I do is to delay the submittals. Until I will be able to finalize all the fill areas for the whole project. I will do the fill areas by tomorrow, and hopefully this will be enough for the client's satisfaction.

 

Il be back for some clarifications after, please bear with me. Until then thank you for your support. 

Message 28 of 37

Did my suggestion in post 15 not work ?

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 29 of 37
troma
in reply to: neilyj666

Neil, earlier you posted "Extracting user defined contours (intervals 0.15, 0.30, 0.45, 0.6 etc) from the volume surface will show the areas"

The problem with this is that the user needs to find the areas of a horizontal fill area, and contours on a volume surface do not represent horizontal lines.

 

In message 15 you posted "...extract the user contours and convert to feature lines taking the levels from the EGL and the raising the feature lines by the appropriate amount e.g. 0.15 0.3 0.45 etc."

Not sure if you meant contours from volume, FG or EG surface.  If from volume, see above, same applies.  If from the other two, you're into the same dillema as I was.

 

I'm not sure why fill must be placed in a horizontal lift, but that's what the poster said.  Would 2% or 4% grade be acceptable?  What I'm sure is not acceptable would be the placeing of fill at just whatever grade the existing ground happens to be; can you imagine trying to place an even layer of 15cm on top of a very uneven existing site? How would you ever know if you had actually reached the 15cm depth at any given location?  How would you do the next layer, and the next, every time copying the existing ground contours with another layer of 15cm?  This also ignores that the poster wants to start at the lowest part of the site, which is not necessarily the same place as the location requring the most fill.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 30 of 37
neilyj666
in reply to: troma

It's certainly a very tricky problem to resolve and may be best approached using the dashboard approach and working in 0.15m from the FGL to the EGL

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 31 of 37

Hey guys hope you still drop by here, today is not very productive day for me in my earthworks. I was convinced there are no other ways for me to have that horizontal areas. So i was just forced to use the elevation banding analysis, for now.

 

The contour-intersecting for existing and design  from Mr. Troma didnt satisfy my minimum distance of surfaces polyline. The contour just spreading but not following the polyline of "cut-fill intersection".

 

I could not use also the plane surface technique and raising it at 15cm increments. This is due to I could not locate the location of starting point of backfill. If it is profile type this could be good but since it is spread earthworks, it is very tedious locationg that point.

 

If I will use the lowest point elevation for my plane surface, and raise this surface to of 15cm increments until the highest point elevation of design, I will be coming up with so many range.

 

Hoping we could come up with new ideas.

Message 32 of 37
troma
in reply to: neilyj666

Neil I'm not familiar with the dashboard, is that new since 2011?


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 33 of 37
neilyj666
in reply to: troma

It appeared as a Subscription only Add on in 2012 but is now integrated into 2013 (and indeed the ReportSurfaceVolume icon has been replaced by the Dashboard in the Standard C3D setup, unless you are me, in which case it hasn't)

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 34 of 37
troma
in reply to: edgardocalixto81


edgardocalixto81 wrote:

Hey guys hope you still drop by here, today is not very productive day for me in my earthworks. I was convinced there are no other ways for me to have that horizontal areas. So i was just forced to use the elevation banding analysis, for now.

 

The contour-intersecting for existing and design  from Mr. Troma didnt satisfy my minimum distance of surfaces polyline. The contour just spreading but not following the polyline of "cut-fill intersection".

I'm not quite sure what you mean.  What is "my minimum distance of surfaces polyline"?  I was imagining that if you have a contour on existing ground at 25.62m and a contour on proposed ground at 25.62m, these two contours would intersect at the matchpoint where your proposed meets existing.  Does this not happen?  Do you have your proposed ground matching existing at the edge?

 

 

I could not use also the plane surface technique and raising it at 15cm increments. This is due to I could not locate the location of starting point of backfill. If it is profile type this could be good but since it is spread earthworks, it is very tedious locationg that point.

You could use elevation banding analysis on the existing surface to help locate this point.  Or if the surface was built from cogo points, you could sort the points be elevation to find the lowest ones, and use the "zoom to" command to find them in the  drawing.

 

 

If I will use the lowest point elevation for my plane surface, and raise this surface to of 15cm increments until the highest point elevation of design, I will be coming up with so many range.

 If your depth was 1.35m as shown previously, you will have 9 ranges.  That's not so many.

 

Hoping we could come up with new ideas.

I feel it we pretty much need to create slices of an AutoCAD solid object, rather than working with TIN volume surfaces. This is outside of what I can help you with.

 

Another option that may help a little: create a copy of existing ground surface, and add the boundary of your proposed ground to it.  Then extract the 15cm contours from that surface.  This way they will only go up so high as necessary, and be trimmed off automatically at the intersection of the surfaces.  This assumes that your proposed ground surface is designed to match the existing ground all the way around the perimeter.


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 35 of 37
edgardocalixto81
in reply to: troma

minimum surface distance is a new command for civil 3D sir, im using 2013, this is the 3d line (actualy a 3d line not polyline my mistake) that created from the intersection of cut and fill along the whole plot. the contours created from EG and Design surface are not  meeting in this 3dline.

 

The location of the deepest fill should be the first fill layer. But not necesarily on the lowest point in ground.  Also the location of this deepest fill is not on one location only, it is scattered all along the whole plot. 

 

The depth of 1.35 is just a part of the grund Sir. The whole area is approximately 425,000 square meter Sir. divided by 12 plots, each will have a independent fill layer data.

 

Message 36 of 37
troma
in reply to: edgardocalixto81

edgardocalixto81 wrote:

minimum surface distance is a new command for civil 3D sir, im using 2013, this is the 3d line (actualy a 3d line not polyline my mistake) that created from the intersection of cut and fill along the whole plot. the contours created from EG and Design surface are not  meeting in this 3dline.

 

Ok, I'm going to ask again: does your proposed ground meet the existing ground all around the perimeter of the site?

If it does not, then your volumes are not reflecting the 'match' that will be made in real life.

If it does, then the minimum distance between surfaces should be zero, and should be reflected by the 0m contour on your volume surface.  And the contours of existing and proposed at the same elevation should also meet at this line.

 

 

 

 

The location of the deepest fill should be the first fill layer. But not necesarily on the lowest point in ground.

 

I thought you said before that the fill needed to be placed horizontally?  If so, then surely you do need to start at the lowest location, even if you only need to place one lift in that location.  If you start at a higher location just because it needs 5 lifts there, how can the fill be placed horizontally?  Instead it will be placed at whatever grade the existing ground is at.  Is that what you're intending?

 

 

 Also the location of this deepest fill is not on one location only, it is scattered all along the whole plot. 

Ok, good point.  This is a obviously a large and complex site.  It will take some work to find/design the fill locations.

 

 

The depth of 1.35 is just a part of the grund Sir. The whole area is approximately 425,000 square meter Sir. divided by 12 plots, each will have a independent fill layer data.

Sounds like a lot of work.  I hope we can help you find a way to automate as much as possible!

 

 


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 37 of 37
edgardocalixto81
in reply to: troma

Ok, I'm going to ask again: does your proposed ground meet the existing ground all around the perimeter of the site?

If it does not, then your volumes are not reflecting the 'match' that will be made in real life.

If it does, then the minimum distance between surfaces should be zero, and should be reflected by the 0m contour on your volume surface.  And the contours of existing and proposed at the same elevation should also meet at this line.

 

The three "line" (EG contour, DES contour and the zero cut-fill meeting lines) but they are not on the same directions (like the EG contour is circular and the DES contour is like lines only). that's why I tell they are not conforming with the Zero Elev line diagram.

 

I thought you said before that the fill needed to be placed horizontally?  If so, then surely you do need to start at the lowest location, even if you only need to place one lift in that location.  If you start at a higher location just because it needs 5 lifts there, how can the fill be placed horizontally?  Instead it will be placed at whatever grade the existing ground is at.  Is that what you're intending?

 

The area I am working Sir is not only fill. They are also cut locations. The lowest point in the ground of each plot maybe cut or maybe in 0.05 fill or maybe 1m fill.

 

Ok, good point.  This is a obviously a large and complex site.  It will take some work to find/design the fill locations.

 

Sounds like a lot of work.  I hope we can help you find a way to automate as much as possible!

 

I have nothing to say but thanks Sir, the official submittal is nearing soon however.

 

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