Descrption Keys vs Group

[Anonymous]

What is the best way of using Description Keys vs Point Groups ?
I am having a hard time understanding the idea on how they where intended to work together.

Is it best to have Field Names with Description Keys for each type of entity
on a project ? Say >>>>>>

Field Name: Road Work
Description Keys: EP Edge of pavement
CL Centerline
SW Sidewalk

Field Name: Storm Sewers
Description Keys: STMH Storm manhole
STLN Storm line
CB Catch Basin

Field Name: Water Lines
Description Keys: WTMH Water manhole
WV Water valve
FH Fire hydrant
WM Water Meter
WTLN Water line

Field Name: Miscellaneous
Description Keys: PP Power pole
SPOT Spot elevations
TB Top of bank
TOE Toe of bank

Or is it best to put all of the above Description Keys under one Field Name
say "Civil Work" ???


Now for Group Points, is it best to group them also by the above items,
Roads, Storm Sewers, Water Lines, Sanitary Sewer and Misc or
to only group the ones required to create a tin (surface) ??

[Anonymous]

Sounds like you're over thinking it a little.

Description keys are for adding symbology to your points and changing a raw
survey description like "IP" to "Iron Pin" and placing certain points on
certain layers automatically.

Point groups are for grouping points based on criteria such as descriptions,
elevation ranges, or even excluding points from a group based on the same
criteria. You need another point group for adding points to a surface.
Point groups can also be used to add symbology to points, but I think most
people do that using description keys. Doing that with point groups is a
little awkward.

There's really no best way. It depends on how you want to organize and
display all of your points. I use desc keys for symbology and layers. I
use point groups for surface creation, turning points on and off, and other
minor miscellaneous reasons.. You certainly don't need to have a
description key for each point type. Points like Centreline, Edge of
Pavement, Ditches, don't need desc keys unless you want each of the points
to go on particular layers. These types of points don't usually have
symbols associated with them, unlike Hydrants, valves, manholes etc.

I have no idea what you mean by putting description keys under field names.

--
Matt Kolberg
Global CADD Systems - A division of Cansel

wrote in message
news:6326440@discussion.autodesk.com...
> What is the best way of using Description Keys vs Point Groups ?
> I am having a hard time understanding the idea on how they where intended
> to work together.
>
> Is it best to have Field Names with Description Keys for each type of
> entity
> on a project ? Say >>>>>>
>
> Field Name: Road Work
> Description Keys: EP Edge of pavement
> CL Centerline
> SW Sidewalk
>
> Field Name: Storm Sewers
> Description Keys: STMH Storm manhole
> STLN Storm line
> CB Catch Basin
>
> Field Name: Water Lines
> Description Keys: WTMH Water manhole
> WV Water valve
> FH Fire hydrant
> WM Water Meter
> WTLN Water line
>
> Field Name: Miscellaneous
> Description Keys: PP Power pole
> SPOT Spot elevations
> TB Top of bank
> TOE Toe of bank
>
> Or is it best to put all of the above Description Keys under one Field
> Name
> say "Civil Work" ???
>
>
> Now for Group Points, is it best to group them also by the above items,
> Roads, Storm Sewers, Water Lines, Sanitary Sewer and Misc or
> to only group the ones required to create a tin (surface) ??

[Sinc]

What is "Field Name"?

We use as few Point Groups as possible. We have maybe 8 Point Groups pre-created, using various desc keys, so that points go into the appropriate group based on Desc Key. Then we have another "Surface Points" group that includes those Groups, and we add the "Surface Points" group to our surface definition.

It gets really annoying having too many Point Groups in a drawing, at least in our experience. So we try to minimize Point Groups. We split things into the 8 or so major groups, because we've found that useful. Other than that, each Desc Key also has a layer assignment, and we have a lot more layers than Point Groups. So the Points in any particular Point Group might be on a variety of layers, but we can control visibility through either the Layers or the Point Group. This gives us an extreme amount of flexibility.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[Anonymous]

I am having the same issues/decisions myself. Personally, I have not had a lot of experience using Description Keys. So far, I have found them hard to manage and a bit of a pain. Currently, to manage my points, I am using point groups with unique point styles. I find this the easiest way to manage and isolate the points that I am concerned with. Usually creating a surface point group is one of my first steps, then I add groups as required.

Thanks,
Jason

[Anonymous]

Thank you Matt, I have a better understanding of how this work now.
Your right I do have a habit of over thinking things out.

Field Name is not correct. What I should have said is, Description Key
(Storm Sewers) and the items such as CB & STMH are the codes.

Thanks again for your help Matt

[Anonymous]

That is pretty good advice IMO. The Point Groups Dialog is, well... not
ideal with the limitation of moving only one group at a time.

Having the ability to use the windows CTL and SHIFT key selection functions
in the Point Group Properties dialog to move multiple groups would make this
soooooo much easier but at least we can drag the dialog to a larger size
now.

If this is on the wish list it could probably use a renewal post. If not, I
think it should be posted.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[Anonymous]

dei-feif

Field Name is not correct. What I should have said is, Description Key
(Storm Sewers) and the items such as CB & STMH are the codes.

Can you have a point code in more than one Point Group ?
Say one in a point group called Storm Sewer and also in a
point group used for surface definition ?

Is this what you are doing ?

If so in which Point Group can you control the layer type for this point ?

[Anonymous]

Any number of codes can exist in a single point group. Any group can
contain any code. Meaninig you can have a point that exists in many
different groups. For example, let's say you import 100 points. I would
make a point group for this import.
"Survey"
Then I would make a group for a surface which excludes 10 points like
monuments, hubs etc. Now we have 90 points in this group and these same 90
(and 10 more) in the survey group.
"Surface"
Then maybe I'll make a group JUST for those monuments and hubs. This group
has 10 points within it. These points, of course, also exist in the survey
group.
"Control"

You see, point groups are an organizational unit that can be used to display
points in different ways.

You cannot control layers using groups, but the general consensus is that
you don't have to. Instead of turning a layer on and off you use the point
and label styles to control visibility of them.

--
Matt Kolberg
Global CADD Systems - A division of Cansel

wrote in message
news:6326506@discussion.autodesk.com...
> dei-feif
>
> Field Name is not correct. What I should have said is, Description Key
> (Storm Sewers) and the items such as CB & STMH are the codes.
>
> Can you have a point code in more than one Point Group ?
> Say one in a point group called Storm Sewer and also in a
> point group used for surface definition ?
>
> Is this what you are doing ?
>
> If so in which Point Group can you control the layer type for this point ?

[Sinc]

> {quote:title=Guest wrote:}{quote}
> You cannot control layers using groups, but the general consensus is that
> you don't have to. Instead of turning a layer on and off you use the point
> and label styles to control visibility of them.

In our usage here, we actually use a combination.

Looking at just field data, the field points are all assigned specific layers and styles, based on the Desc Key. We also have a bunch of high-level Point Groups, such as Pavement points, Utility points, etc. For example, our Utility Point Group has all the utilities in it. However, individual points in that Point Group are on different layers - water points, electric points, sanitary points, etc.

So now we can turn of an entire class of points by overriding the styles in the Point Group, or we can turn items on and off with a finer level of control by using Layers. This setup gives us a lot of flexibility, but without all the problems that arise from having too many Point Groups.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[Sinc]

> {quote:title=Guest wrote:}{quote}
> Having the ability to use the windows CTL and SHIFT key selection functions
> in the Point Group Properties dialog to move multiple groups would make this
> soooooo much easier but at least we can drag the dialog to a larger size
> now.

Even more, we could use the ability to create Groups of Point Groups, and then rearrange the Groups.

This is something that I've wanted to add to C3D for several years now, but I still can't, because we still can't set Point Group priority via the API...

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[andrewpuller3811]

Jason,

We have our point groups set up in our template to manage the various groups of points.

We have a group for our trees, one for survey control, one for survey setout points, one for contourable points, one for point style manipulation and one for point label manipulation.

These point groups can be setup to group points based on the raw descriptions even before the points are brought in.

We also have an empty surface in the template that has the point group Contour added, so when points are inserted they are automatically added to the surface.

[amdomag]

Let me summarize the difference between them:

1. Point Group is basically used to group point objects to your preference. You can have overlapping Point Groups depending on what provides you the convenience in your work. It has nothing to do with Desription Keys.
2. Description Keys provide the facility to automatically clasffify, beautify, and readily assign style to points during import process and to project resident points as well. Description Key as nothing to do with Point Group.

Hope this helps.

Arnel M. Domag
nth geographics and geometrics

[amdomag]

Point Group is just a logical grouping and not a physical one.

Arnel M. Domag
nth geographics and geometrics

[Anonymous]

seems to me like when i use desc keys to insert points - mostly to get them on layers - then the point group display will not work - am i missing one of those little hidden settings somewhere
thanks
lgs

[Sinc]

If you use Desc Keys to assign styles to each individual Cogo Point, then those styles will take priority over the styles in the Point Group, UNLESS you turn on the Point Group Override (on the Overrides tab, in the Point Group Properties).

The order of control is:

1) Style from Point Group, IF the Override is enabled.
2) Style assigned to the Cogo Point itself, if one is assigned.
3) Style from Point Group.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[Anonymous]

wow - thank you so much - that has been giving me some major grief for a few months now
lgs