Civil3D v LandDesktop - Data Structures

[Buzz12345]

The Land Desktop project structure allowed data to be saved externally to create a single authorative original of each object, and yet the drawing could still interact with it, in a Read Only or Read&Write fashion. This kept drawing sizes to a minimum, effectively archived (backed-up) data and allowed data to be shared. It seems difficult to achieve the same thing with C3D.

So...

1. How do we best manage large projects with lots of object data (points, surfaces, alignments, profiles, assemblies and corridors)?
For a start you don't want all of the objects visible at once, but you do need new objects to be able to interact with everything else. So how do you have them all on tap without having a cluttered drawing and significantly reduced computer performance.

For example you start with a NG surface and then integrate design info to create a FG surface. Once you've done that you can get rid of your NG surface - but no, it has to stay in the drawing because your FG surface is dependent on it. So you still need it in the drawing, but you don’t want to see it (and you don't want it compromising your performance).

2. What's the best way to secure (backup) data in case there's a crash?
You may complete a road corridor design and be entirely happy with it. You still need access to it so that your next design object can interact with it, but you want to lock it down so it's not compromised by a crash (or user error). So you can save it in another drawing, but you want to be able to identify that object as the original one, and still be able to interact with it.

3. What's the best way to share data between users? A typical project will have survey measurements, topo information, surfaces, design info and legal boundary data (etc) all being prepared and used by different people. So the data needs to be able to be shared between users.

I appreciate that I could archive data in LandXML format, but it doesn’t create an authoritative, definitive, original that I can interact with.

I know that C3D is a different way of working, but help me get my head around it. What's the best way to manage the data and the design process?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Michael
WinXP SP2
LandDesktop 2005 SP 1 & Civil3D 2005 SP 1

[Anonymous]

Hey Buzz; How's Woody these days? :-) But seriously, you've hit on the biggest sticking point for most people. Having all the data in one DWG does make for pretty poor performance. Add in the ability of the DWG to go corrupt on you, and now what? I had an experience with the initial beta version that ended with me just starting over with the test project. It was one that was going to continue life as an LDT Project, so no harm was done. But not a very encouraging initial experience. Though that's not to say that I'm going to be reticent to try once again when the current firm acquires C3D this Spring. I just yesterday was stymied by LDT's long, drawn-out processes when faced with Hillside development issues. Several times during yesterday's trials and tribulations I was wishing the project would wait for C3D to have a chance at it. Time will tell. -- Don Reichle "King Of Work-Arounds" Barghausen Consulting Engineers Kent, WA USA LDT3 - SP1/CD3 - SP1 On WIN2K SP4 Dell 1.6 Ghz P4 512MB RAM NVIDIA 32MB AGP "Buzz123" wrote in message news:30467679.1106879197767.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > The Land Desktop project structure allowed data to be saved externally to create a single authorative original of each object, and yet the drawing could still interact with it, in a Read Only or Read&Write fashion. This kept drawing sizes to a minimum, effectively archived (backed-up) data and allowed data to be shared. It seems difficult to achieve the same thing with C3D. > > So... > > 1. How do we best manage large projects with lots of object data (points, surfaces, alignments, profiles, assemblies and corridors)? > For a start you don't want all of the objects visible at once, but you do need new objects to be able to interact with everything else. So how do you have them all on tap without having a cluttered drawing and significantly reduced computer performance. > > For example you start with a NG surface and then integrate design info to create a FG surface. Once you've done that you can get rid of your NG surface - but no, it has to stay in the drawing because your FG surface is dependent on it. So you still need it in the drawing, but you don't want to see it (and you don't want it compromising your performance). > > 2. What's the best way to secure (backup) data in case there's a crash? > You may complete a road corridor design and be entirely happy with it. You still need access to it so that your next design object can interact with it, but you want to lock it down so it's not compromised by a crash (or user error). So you can save it in another drawing, but you want to be able to identify that object as the original one, and still be able to interact with it. > > 3. What's the best way to share data between users? A typical project will have survey measurements, topo information, surfaces, design info and legal boundary data (etc) all being prepared and used by different people. So the data needs to be able to be shared between users. > > I appreciate that I could archive data in LandXML format, but it doesn't create an authoritative, definitive, original that I can interact with. > > I know that C3D is a different way of working, but help me get my head around it. What's the best way to manage the data and the design process? > > Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > Michael > WinXP SP2 > LandDesktop 2005 SP 1 & Civil3D 2005 SP 1

[Anonymous]

Well, there CAN be a definitive original for some objects. What's your opinion about C3D projects? Of course, only points, point groups, and surfaces can be saved to a project right now. Maybe in the future, alignments etc. may be saved. These objects need not be in a drawing file to be saved and backed up, but to use them with your alignments and sections they can be checked out and displayed using graphics friendly styles such as only showing the border for a surface, or a tick for the point. They can be frozen, thus not requiring them to be regenerated. This doesn't help with profiles, alignments or any other object though. These objects can be frozen to help with performance, but they need to reside in a drawing until Civil 3D has a nice resting spot for them within a project. Maybe what's needed are a bunch of drawings all xref'd together. A bit of an organizational nightmare if there are a zillion alignments involved. Object security is a tough one. Without the ability for alignments, profiles, assemblies, and corridors to be stored within a project, I just can't see any way of preventing an untrained, or unwary soul from accidentally changing or deleted said objects. Locking the layer on which the objects reside seems the only choice to me. This will prevent the user from a quick grip edit slip-up or delete. Hmm, quite by accident, it seems I'm making a solid point for creating styles with layers, not colours, and also employing name prefixes to all your objects' layers. Hmm, kind of like I've always done with Land. Until all of the important objects can reside in a project, I don't see any way of sharing them without separating them into multiple drawings and xref'ing them. One can only work on a few alignments at any given time, so xref'ing the others nearby shouldn't be a problem. I'm terribly sorry for rambling, I just sort of, got into thinking. But these are my thoughts. Let me know what you think. Matt Kolberg

[Anonymous]

We have the same problem. It seems to me that the process hasn't been totally thought through by whoever is responsible for the overall software design of Civil 3D. I think that instead of having projects, a much more elegant solution (if adopted by Autodesk for a future version of Civil 3d) would be to allow Civil 3d objects to reference objects in xref drawings. For example: 1. If I xref a drawing that has an existing ground surface, I should be able to use that surface to place spot labels, draw sections, etc. 2. If I xref a master drawing, I should be able to reference any parcels or alignments in that drawing, in order to label. 3. If I xref two drawings, one containing an exisitng surface, and one with the proposed, I should be able to run earthwork calculations, display cut/fill ticks, etc. 4. It would be nice to xref a drawing with a surface, (let's say for a drainage exhibit), then be able to change the display style of that surface just within that file. Why not give users the ability to reference an alignment as "xrefname|alignmentname"? When I first heard about Civil 3D, I assumed that's how it would work. With such a mechanism in place, projects would be inherent in the way files are xref'd... thus there would be no need for explicitly creating a project. With the current version, I can't see how we'll be able to work on any of our real projects without going back and forth with Land Desktop. This is the deal-breaker... I want to avoid ANY translating between the programs because: 1. It's an extra step that adds nothing to the project. 2. It'll be harder to keep track of which version (Civil 3D or Land Desktop Project) is up to date, not to mention keeping the Civil 3D project "synchronized" with it's component drawings. 3. There are bound to be data compatability issues with the translation. 4. By translating back to Land Desktop, you lose the link between the objects (the whole point of Civil 3D). Then what happens when there's are major changes? (Translate back to Civil 3D, make the changes, translate back to Land Desktop, relabel everything?... no thanks, the labeling is what take the time.) We're learning everything we can about Civil 3D, but we're starting to think that we're better off with using just Land Desktop for all of our real work until Civil 3D is complete. If anyone has come up with solutions to working with multiple users/multiple files, please post them for all. - Aaron Lance "Buzz123" wrote in message news:30467679.1106879197767.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > The Land Desktop project structure allowed data to be saved externally to > create a single authorative original of each object, and yet the drawing > could still interact with it, in a Read Only or Read&Write fashion. This > kept drawing sizes to a minimum, effectively archived (backed-up) data and > allowed data to be shared. It seems difficult to achieve the same thing > with C3D. > > So... > > 1. How do we best manage large projects with lots of object data (points, > surfaces, alignments, profiles, assemblies and corridors)? > For a start you don't want all of the objects visible at once, but you do > need new objects to be able to interact with everything else. So how do > you have them all on tap without having a cluttered drawing and > significantly reduced computer performance. > > For example you start with a NG surface and then integrate design info to > create a FG surface. Once you've done that you can get rid of your NG > surface - but no, it has to stay in the drawing because your FG surface is > dependent on it. So you still need it in the drawing, but you don't want > to see it (and you don't want it compromising your performance). > > 2. What's the best way to secure (backup) data in case there's a crash? > You may complete a road corridor design and be entirely happy with it. > You still need access to it so that your next design object can interact > with it, but you want to lock it down so it's not compromised by a crash > (or user error). So you can save it in another drawing, but you want to > be able to identify that object as the original one, and still be able to > interact with it. > > 3. What's the best way to share data between users? A typical project > will have survey measurements, topo information, surfaces, design info and > legal boundary data (etc) all being prepared and used by different people. > So the data needs to be able to be shared between users. > > I appreciate that I could archive data in LandXML format, but it doesn't > create an authoritative, definitive, original that I can interact with. > > I know that C3D is a different way of working, but help me get my head > around it. What's the best way to manage the data and the design process? > > Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > Michael > WinXP SP2 > LandDesktop 2005 SP 1 & Civil3D 2005 SP 1