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*Brian Hailey
Message 1 of 47 (114 Views)

Civil3D 2005

114 Views, 46 Replies
03-09-2004 12:28 PM
Does anyone know if anything new is going to be implemented in Civil3D 2005? Perhaps a website? I'm really looking forward to being able to attach a grading object to a vertical alignment. Along those lines, will 2005 be a download or will it be shipped? Brian
*Dave Simeone
Message 2 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 06:48 AM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Hi Brian - Unfortunately we're unable to discuss details on timing/scope for any future products so there's no website that I can point you to. However there are some pretty reasonable assumptions that you can make. If (hypothetically) a future (hypothethical) Civil 3D product was built on AutoCAD 2005 it would need to have the same deployment requirements as AutoCAD 2005 (i.e. there would be a full installation, so no download option). As a general observation, to me it appears that overall feature maturity/quality (particularly with grading) and road/corridor modeling (sectional design) are the most common/highest priority requests from our users. One could assume that we use this information to define the highest priority items in our list of requirements for future product plans. How, when, or even if this turns into shipped product can't be discussed publicly. We'll make sure your request for the ability to grade off the vertical alignment is on our requirements list. (again, no promises on when/if/how/etc) Now that I think about it - your request is a pretty specific "feature" request. I'm very interested in the details of the task(s) that you're trying to complete. That way we can properly prioritize and scope/spec features. Your request is to grade off a proposed profile. Is this because the current product doesn't have corridor modeling capabilities? Is your request that you need to be able to model a road, channel, etc that has ben defined by horizontal and vertical alignments? Does the need to grade off a profile become less important if there is dynamic corridor modeling functionality in the product? Is there something else that you are doing that may require a different solution? Thanks for the feedback and sorry that I can't give you the details that your looking for. Dave S "Brian Hailey" wrote in message news:404e28d2_2@newsprd01... > Does anyone know if anything new is going to be implemented in Civil3D 2005? > Perhaps a website? I'm really looking forward to being able to attach a > grading object to a vertical alignment. > > Along those lines, will 2005 be a download or will it be shipped? > > Brian > >
*Brian Hailey
Message 3 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 08:01 AM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Hi Dave, Wow! That sure is a wordy (or not) way of not saying anything (or something). :smileyhappy: Around here we don't do a lot of roadway design that isn't part of a subdivision and typically, we don't have to do cross sections for these roads and, hence, I haven't taken the time to learn the template processes. What I typically do is to design the centerline of the roadway and import that into my plan as a 3d pline, offset it to define my road section and use those 3d plines to build my surface. The nice thing about doing it this way is I can go into each intersection and manually design them with breaklines and I get a very accurate surface. What I would like to see with Civil3D is having grading objects attached to the vertical alignment so that when I change the design of the roadway, the grading objects will change along with it. I was thinking I would define the grading objects along the entire alignment except within the intersections. Taking this a bit further, perhaps I could use the grading objects to grade an entire block of homes. For example, I have four roadways in a rectangular shape surrounding a group of homes. I attach a grading object to the vertical profiles and have it do the following: 1) 17' at -2% to the edge of asphalt 2) 2' dropping 2" to the flowline 3) 6" raising 6" to the back of curb 4) 4' at 2% for the sidewalk 5) variable distance at 2% until it joins with the other grading objects. Obviously, this wouldn't work for all blocks and each one would have to be looked at individually but, it's something to think about. Brian "Dave Simeone" wrote in message news:40507c28$1_3@newsprd01... > > Hi Brian - Unfortunately we're unable to discuss details on timing/scope for > any future products so there's no website that I can point you to. > > However there are some pretty reasonable assumptions that you can make. If > (hypothetically) a future (hypothethical) Civil 3D product was built on > AutoCAD 2005 it would need to have the same deployment requirements as > AutoCAD 2005 (i.e. there would be a full installation, so no download > option). > > As a general observation, to me it appears that overall feature > maturity/quality (particularly with grading) and road/corridor modeling > (sectional design) are the most common/highest priority requests from our > users. One could assume that we use this information to define the highest > priority items in our list of requirements for future product plans. How, > when, or even if this turns into shipped product can't be discussed > publicly. We'll make sure your request for the ability to grade off the > vertical alignment is on our requirements list. (again, no promises on > when/if/how/etc) > > Now that I think about it - your request is a pretty specific "feature" > request. I'm very interested in the details of the task(s) that you're > trying to complete. That way we can properly prioritize and scope/spec > features. Your request is to grade off a proposed profile. Is this because > the current product doesn't have corridor modeling capabilities? Is your > request that you need to be able to model a road, channel, etc that has ben > defined by horizontal and vertical alignments? Does the need to grade off a > profile become less important if there is dynamic corridor modeling > functionality in the product? Is there something else that you are doing > that may require a different solution? > > Thanks for the feedback and sorry that I can't give you the details that > your looking for. > Dave S > > "Brian Hailey" wrote in message > news:404e28d2_2@newsprd01... > > Does anyone know if anything new is going to be implemented in Civil3D > 2005? > > Perhaps a website? I'm really looking forward to being able to attach a > > grading object to a vertical alignment. > > > > Along those lines, will 2005 be a download or will it be shipped? > > > > Brian > > > > > >
*Steve Cannon
Message 4 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 08:02 AM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Hi Dave, > Does the need to grade off a profile become less > important if there is dynamic corridor modeling > functionality in the product? Is there something else > that you are doing that may require a different solution? I do not wish to speak for Brian, I am sure he will offer his own take. But as a site designer, the marriage of a grading object to a profile (and alignment) is the most important grading feature that has never been addressed in either LDT nor C3D. You guys have always treated corridor design and site design as two distinctly different disciplines, when in fact, the designer often needs to use common methods. The approach would be to use 'quick' alignments for much more than traditional roads and channels. As a site designer I may want to layout the swale or berm in plan view, but input or modify the vertical data for that swale in profile. Then attach various grading objects that describe the ditch/berm and any associated features, then control the whole grading by the profile(and alignment). Stationing may be arbitrary as opposed to absolute. Having to go through the whole corridor process by defining templates would be an exorbitant waste of time. As I design the back of a cul-de-sac or a return, I may want to layout the curb in plan view (arc), add some elevations to the end points, and then view that arc in profile to add a pvi add the back of curb with a vertical curve. A grading group could be made to represent the sidewalk and row. and I could see my grading change as I change the profile. In fact, for local residential roads in subdivisions, forget corridor design altogether (at least for preliminary design) Layout a CL alignment, define a FG profile, attach several dependent grading objects to the alignment that define the road section, and play with profile while querying the grading group. Now you are designing a road in 2d and 3d at the same time. I suppose you could even take it a step farther and attached pad grading to the grading group, since most pad grading is controlled by roadway top of curb elevations. In LDT 3d polylines have limitations - no arcs in 3d. Designers really need to work in profile and plan at the same time. We get around this by converting 3d polys back and forth to alignments and profiles using our own routines. But we are restricted by the definition of the 3d poly. In C3D, you could have a feature lines, made up of arcs and tangents, and hopefully controlled by alignments and profiles. So we can have curves that have elevations. By attaching alignments and profiles to feature lines to grading objects, you provide a very simple process for grouping simple grading objects to define a more complicated design, that is controlled by the alignment and profile. You also need to supplement features lines with many more interactive ways for the designer to edit and manipulate the elevation directly from plan view, that result in the profile being changed, that result in changes to the grading group. sc
*Don Reichle
Message 5 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 11:38 AM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
And what's the problem with using the 3D Polyline tools in the Terrain pull down. They are capable of creating "short chord" curves all day long. Yes, Steve the process you've described would be the ideal, but check out the tools that we have now and you will discover the solution, most times. I know for a fact that you're capable of "thinking outside the box". Whoa, I just had an epiphane! Inside said 3D Polyline tools is the ability to fillet a 3D Poly. Why can't we use that to help us create curb returns? We can get the 3DPs from the templates that establish the grade of the gutter flowlines into and out of the intersections. Then create a separate 3DP with a vertex point at the horz/vert PI of the curve. Then fillet that 3DP with the proper radius of the curb return and Viola! you've got the basis for all the rest of the curb return geometry. I can't wait to give it a try! I'll bet some fancy programmer could take that concept and make some serious money with it! Now, if I only knew how to accomplish that. Maybe whoever takes the idea would share the royalties with me. Sure, dream on! -- Don Reichle "King of Work-Arounds" Ifland Engineers, Inc. "Steve Cannon" wrote in message news:40508db2$1_2@newsprd01... > Hi Dave, > > > Does the need to grade off a profile become less > > important if there is dynamic corridor modeling > > functionality in the product? Is there something else > > that you are doing that may require a different solution? > > > I do not wish to speak for Brian, I am sure he will offer his own take. But > as a site designer, the marriage of a grading object to a profile (and > alignment) is the most important grading feature that has never been > addressed in either LDT nor C3D. You guys have always treated corridor > design and site design as two distinctly different disciplines, when in > fact, the designer often needs to use common methods. The approach would be > to use 'quick' alignments for much more than traditional roads and channels. > > As a site designer I may want to layout the swale or berm in plan view, but > input or modify the vertical data for that swale in profile. Then attach > various grading objects that describe the ditch/berm and any associated > features, then control the whole grading by the profile(and alignment). > Stationing may be arbitrary as opposed to absolute. Having to go through the > whole corridor process by defining templates would be an exorbitant waste of > time. > > As I design the back of a cul-de-sac or a return, I may want to layout the > curb in plan view (arc), add some elevations to the end points, and then > view that arc in profile to add a pvi add the back of curb with a vertical > curve. A grading group could be made to represent the sidewalk and row. and > I could see my grading change as I change the profile. > > In fact, for local residential roads in subdivisions, forget corridor design > altogether (at least for preliminary design) Layout a CL alignment, define a > FG profile, attach several dependent grading objects to the alignment that > define the road section, and play with profile while querying the grading > group. Now you are designing a road in 2d and 3d at the same time. I > suppose you could even take it a step farther and attached pad grading to > the grading group, since most pad grading is controlled by roadway top of > curb elevations. > > In LDT 3d polylines have limitations - no arcs in 3d. Designers really need > to work in profile and plan at the same time. We get around this by > converting 3d polys back and forth to alignments and profiles using our own > routines. But we are restricted by the definition of the 3d poly. In C3D, > you could have a feature lines, made up of arcs and tangents, and hopefully > controlled by alignments and profiles. So we can have curves that have > elevations. By attaching alignments and profiles to feature lines to grading > objects, you provide a very simple process for grouping simple grading > objects to define a more complicated design, that is controlled by the > alignment and profile. You also need to supplement features lines with many > more interactive ways for the designer to edit and manipulate the elevation > directly from plan view, that result in the profile being changed, that > result in changes to the grading group. > > sc > >
*Laurie Comerford
Message 6 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 11:59 AM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Hi Don, If only the fillet 3D polyline was that easy. Don't forget that vertically it just does a linear interpretation between the end levels. It would need to be modified to take account of the grades in the approach and departure legs and created a curved vertical profile to be fully useful. -- Laurie Comerford CADApps www.cadapps.com.au "Don Reichle" wrote in message news:4050bfec$1_2@newsprd01... > And what's the problem with using the 3D Polyline tools in the Terrain pull > down. They are capable of creating "short chord" curves all day long. > > Yes, Steve the process you've described would be the ideal, but check out > the tools that we have now and you will discover the solution, most times. > > I know for a fact that you're capable of "thinking outside the box". > > Whoa, I just had an epiphane! > > Inside said 3D Polyline tools is the ability to fillet a 3D Poly. Why can't > we use that to help us create curb returns? We can get the 3DPs from the > templates that establish the grade of the gutter flowlines into and out of > the intersections. Then create a separate 3DP with a vertex point at the > horz/vert PI of the curve. Then fillet that 3DP with the proper radius of > the curb return and Viola! you've got the basis for all the rest of the curb > return geometry. I can't wait to give it a try! > > I'll bet some fancy programmer could take that concept and make some serious > money with it! > > Now, if I only knew how to accomplish that. Maybe whoever takes the idea > would share the royalties with me. > > Sure, dream on! > -- > Don Reichle > "King of Work-Arounds" > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > "Steve Cannon" wrote in message > news:40508db2$1_2@newsprd01... > > Hi Dave, > > > > > Does the need to grade off a profile become less > > > important if there is dynamic corridor modeling > > > functionality in the product? Is there something else > > > that you are doing that may require a different solution? > > > > > > I do not wish to speak for Brian, I am sure he will offer his own take. > But > > as a site designer, the marriage of a grading object to a profile (and > > alignment) is the most important grading feature that has never been > > addressed in either LDT nor C3D. You guys have always treated corridor > > design and site design as two distinctly different disciplines, when in > > fact, the designer often needs to use common methods. The approach would > be > > to use 'quick' alignments for much more than traditional roads and > channels. > > > > As a site designer I may want to layout the swale or berm in plan view, > but > > input or modify the vertical data for that swale in profile. Then attach > > various grading objects that describe the ditch/berm and any associated > > features, then control the whole grading by the profile(and alignment). > > Stationing may be arbitrary as opposed to absolute. Having to go through > the > > whole corridor process by defining templates would be an exorbitant waste > of > > time. > > > > As I design the back of a cul-de-sac or a return, I may want to layout the > > curb in plan view (arc), add some elevations to the end points, and then > > view that arc in profile to add a pvi add the back of curb with a vertical > > curve. A grading group could be made to represent the sidewalk and row. > and > > I could see my grading change as I change the profile. > > > > In fact, for local residential roads in subdivisions, forget corridor > design > > altogether (at least for preliminary design) Layout a CL alignment, define > a > > FG profile, attach several dependent grading objects to the alignment that > > define the road section, and play with profile while querying the grading > > group. Now you are designing a road in 2d and 3d at the same time. I > > suppose you could even take it a step farther and attached pad grading to > > the grading group, since most pad grading is controlled by roadway top of > > curb elevations. > > > > In LDT 3d polylines have limitations - no arcs in 3d. Designers really > need > > to work in profile and plan at the same time. We get around this by > > converting 3d polys back and forth to alignments and profiles using our > own > > routines. But we are restricted by the definition of the 3d poly. In > C3D, > > you could have a feature lines, made up of arcs and tangents, and > hopefully > > controlled by alignments and profiles. So we can have curves that have > > elevations. By attaching alignments and profiles to feature lines to > grading > > objects, you provide a very simple process for grouping simple grading > > objects to define a more complicated design, that is controlled by the > > alignment and profile. You also need to supplement features lines with > many > > more interactive ways for the designer to edit and manipulate the > elevation > > directly from plan view, that result in the profile being changed, that > > result in changes to the grading group. > > > > sc > > > > > >
*Shawn Caldwell
Message 7 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 12:22 PM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Dave, I'd much rather see pipes added into C3D. We do a lot of municipal work with sanitary sewer, storm sewer, and waterline work. The roadwork stuff sort of comes and goes, but the utility work is our bread and butter. Having pipe objects that work like the profile objects would be a dream come true for us. Then to have the sheet set manager do our plan/profile layouts. Just my wish for how things were to work out. Shawn Caldwell Cad Manager Anderson & Associates, Inc.
*James Wedding
Message 8 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 12:57 PM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Only for you Aussies. Most US "kerbs" are done with a straight grade between returns. The fillet 3Dpoly works just fine for our use. Really, we just grade to the return, the concrete guy forms a straight line or some such between them, and off to the rodeo. At least for all the commercial/SF jobs we've done. Your requirements are why we don't have a simplified intersection grading routine. You and all the other customers outside the US. Every time I've told Dan, et al how easy it is to do curb returns in the US, they just kind of sigh and tell me that they couldn't do that because all the international people would raise holy hell. -- James Wedding, P.E. IT Manager Jones & Boyd, Inc. Dallas, TX XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 LDT2004+C3D
*Steve Cannon
Message 9 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 01:54 PM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Hi, On returns, we do not go to the extent that the Aussies do, but your over-simplification does not work for us either. Design of the return depends upon the algebraic difference of the intersecting grades, rather or not we are using a valley gutter, and the location of the return - a high side return is designed differently than a low side return. The intent is to keep the trickle flow in the flowline and headed in the desired direction. Some returns are as you say- straight graded, others will have different slopes and a VPI. Infrastructure plans require return quarter point elevations for both TC and FL - and these points are staked in the field for the concrete guys. The key is to make the intersection components easily and interactively post editable, and hopefully parametric. I would find this preferable to making the designer pre-define the whole design as one rigid intersection style. Every intersection is not going to be the same. Hopefully C3D is not designed only for Texans - but then you probably lump New Mexico in with the foreigners anyway. sc "James Wedding" wrote in message news:4050d288$1_2@newsprd01... > Only for you Aussies. Most US "kerbs" are done with a straight grade between > returns. The fillet 3Dpoly works just fine for our use. > > Really, we just grade to the return, the concrete guy forms a straight line > or some such between them, and off to the rodeo. At least for all the > commercial/SF jobs we've done. > > Your requirements are why we don't have a simplified intersection grading > routine. You and all the other customers outside the US. Every time > I've told Dan, et al how easy it is to do curb returns in the US, they just > kind of sigh and tell me that they couldn't do that because all the > international people would raise holy hell. > > -- > James Wedding, P.E. > IT Manager > Jones & Boyd, Inc. > Dallas, TX > XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 > LDT2004+C3D > >
*Laurie Comerford
Message 10 of 47 (114 Views)

Re: Civil3D 2005

03-11-2004 02:19 PM in reply to: *Brian Hailey
Hi James, One of the issues is that most of the world has some degree of level change. My memory of the Dallas area was that anything higher than a metre above the surrounding plain would be called a mountain. What works in flat country does not work once the topography gets steeper. It's certainly true that the kerb returns are usually site adjusted despite the design. As Steve Cannon indicated a common form of documentation is levels at the quarter points. Typically here the levels are derived from a vertical design inclusive of curves. At the moment, we obviously don't raise enough hell as the intersection design tools in Civil Design are non-existent and Civil 3D yet to be seen. Find me a tool which enables me to pick two centrelines and an intersection layout type - fill out the relevant radii parameters, then get on with my life. Find me a tool which enables the complete vertical design of the intersection without writing numbers on a sheet of paper so I can re-input them later. (Whoops - I've got that one in Advanced Road Design) -- Laurie Comerford CADApps www.cadapps.com.au "James Wedding" wrote in message news:4050d288$1_2@newsprd01... > Only for you Aussies. Most US "kerbs" are done with a straight grade between > returns. The fillet 3Dpoly works just fine for our use. > > Really, we just grade to the return, the concrete guy forms a straight line > or some such between them, and off to the rodeo. At least for all the > commercial/SF jobs we've done. > > Your requirements are why we don't have a simplified intersection grading > routine. You and all the other customers outside the US. Every time > I've told Dan, et al how easy it is to do curb returns in the US, they just > kind of sigh and tell me that they couldn't do that because all the > international people would raise holy hell. > > -- > James Wedding, P.E. > IT Manager > Jones & Boyd, Inc. > Dallas, TX > XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 > LDT2004+C3D > >

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