AutoCAD Civil 3D General Discussion

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*Doug Boys
Message 11 of 32 (87 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-21-2004 02:28 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Yes it is time to go to style-based plotting (but you are right; most places still use ctb). Style-based plotting will allow us to sort and organise elements according to what they are and what they represent in the project and in the design process. And we won't have to worry any more about whether they are on the right layer for the draftsman to be able to plot them the right "pen width". We still have the ultimate confusion of having layers named "Pen 3" and "Text 03" with no idea what the items are design-wise. Doug Boys "Steve Cannon" wrote in message news:4037888b$1_2@newsprd01... > James, Since r2000, we have had > style based plotting (stb), but my experience indicates that almost no civil > firms have implemented it (still use ctb). Since C3D will require a > substantial re-working of the standards anyway, is it also the time that > firms should look at going all the way to stb plotting and really scrap the > old standards?
*Steve Cannon
Message 12 of 32 (87 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-22-2004 09:15 AM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Doug, I tend to agree that style based plotting seems to make more sense in C3D than LDT. However, other than the time it takes a company to convert, I see three major obstacles to implementation: 1) Dealing with legacy drawings will require firms to perpetuate a dual management system. 2) Controlling on-off visibility during a session. Users are used to and comfortable with AutoCAD's Layer manager to accomplish this. C3D gives on-off visibility to C3D objects as a function of style, and some grouping controls. Prospector acts somewhat as an object manager, but I see no user interface quite as direct as the traditional layer manager and the associated layer management toolbars such as express tools. Degrading the functionality of these controls without providing equivalent replacement controls would seem like a step backward to most users. 3) Inevitably, as an end-result we are going to see the drawing composition as a mixed bag of C3D objects and traditional AutoCAD objects. Does this mean that a style based approach also means a dual approach to managing attributes such as on-off visibility? I read that James is trying to take the approach to keep AutoCAD objects such as text out of the drawing, replacing text with C3D labels instead. I know why - so he can control how they appear in different rotated viewports. Sounds like is going to warp the intended usage of Parcel label styles to meet his need. If he is successful in accomplishing his goal, he eliminates constraint #3. But what about constraint #2? I am not proffering one method over another, I am just looking for other's takes on the strategy. sc "Doug Boys" wrote in message news:4037db94_1@newsprd01... > Yes it is time to go to style-based plotting (but you are right; most places > still use ctb). > > Style-based plotting will allow us to sort and organise elements according > to what they are and what they represent in the project and in the design > process. And we won't have to worry any more about whether they are on the > right layer for the draftsman to be able to plot them the right "pen width".
*Steve Cannon
Message 13 of 32 (87 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-22-2004 09:54 AM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Laurie, > I would see the "default" settings provided with > the software will set the drafting style for a large > number of small firms. Maybe that is the way it works in Australia, but not here. The City of Albuquerque has the 4" thick Design Process Manual, which has to be adhered to for every subdivision processed. It describes exact specifications for every text, symbol, line, and sheet composition, right down to the Leroy text size and line width for different elements. It even specifies North arrow rotation. I know that Denver and Phoenix also have manuals that are quite extensive and quite different. I go outside Albuquerque to Bernalillo County, and everything changes. Go up to Santa Fe and it changes again. There is no way I see any style provided in C3D as 'default', out of the box settings that would even come close for any firm around here. sc
*Laurie Comerford
Message 14 of 32 (87 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-22-2004 11:59 AM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Hi Steve, In Victoria, our Sewer Authorities tend to work that way, but Councils who control sub-divisions are far more sensible and flexible. I can see advantages in a fairly common drafting layout process as it must help Contractors interpret drawings when there is consistency in appearance, but one would hope that in the long term interests of a society that Authorities could co-operate in standardising and reducing requirements to meet the level of detail you indicate. -- Laurie Comerford CADApps www.cadapps.com.au "Steve Cannon" wrote in message news:4038ece2_2@newsprd01... > Laurie, > > > I would see the "default" settings provided with > > the software will set the drafting style for a large > > number of small firms. > > Maybe that is the way it works in Australia, but not here. The City of > Albuquerque has the 4" thick Design Process Manual, which has to be adhered > to for every subdivision processed. It describes exact specifications for > every text, symbol, line, and sheet composition, right down to the Leroy > text size and line width for different elements. It even specifies North > arrow rotation. I know that Denver and Phoenix also have manuals that are > quite extensive and quite different. I go outside Albuquerque to Bernalillo > County, and everything changes. Go up to Santa Fe and it changes again. > There is no way I see any style provided in C3D as 'default', out of the box > settings that would even come close for any firm around here. > > sc > >
*Don Reichle
Message 15 of 32 (87 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-22-2004 09:27 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Laurie; I hate to insert any type of political bent to this thread, but Americans fought the Revolutionary War over a centralized flavor of government, and while it appears that some here would welcome a return to those ways, most of us are individuals, which tend to bleed over into our ways of handling most everything in life. But just get us united against a common enemy and they will soon learn a hard lesson on why we are known as the United States. From the way that municipal agencies who may be only separated from eaach other by a freeway having divergent drafting standards, to all 50 states having a loose affiliation through AASHTO but yet having different regional implementations of said standards. I know that you must have the same type of situation "down under" what with your six (or is it seven, I can't remember) territories have significantly different types of terrain and climate, something like we enjoy here in the USA. --- Don Reichle "King of Work-Arounds" Ifland Engineers, Inc. "Laurie Comerford" wrote in message news:40390959_3@newsprd01... > Hi Steve, > > In Victoria, our Sewer Authorities tend to work that way, but Councils who > control sub-divisions are far more sensible and flexible. > > I can see advantages in a fairly common drafting layout process as it must > help Contractors interpret drawings when there is consistency in appearance, > but one would hope that in the long term interests of a society that > Authorities could co-operate in standardising and reducing requirements to > meet the level of detail you indicate. > > -- > > > Laurie Comerford > CADApps > www.cadapps.com.au > > "Steve Cannon" wrote in message > news:4038ece2_2@newsprd01... > > Laurie, > > > > > I would see the "default" settings provided with > > > the software will set the drafting style for a large > > > number of small firms. > > > > Maybe that is the way it works in Australia, but not here. The City of > > Albuquerque has the 4" thick Design Process Manual, which has to be > adhered > > to for every subdivision processed. It describes exact specifications for > > every text, symbol, line, and sheet composition, right down to the Leroy > > text size and line width for different elements. It even specifies North > > arrow rotation. I know that Denver and Phoenix also have manuals that are > > quite extensive and quite different. I go outside Albuquerque to > Bernalillo > > County, and everything changes. Go up to Santa Fe and it changes again. > > There is no way I see any style provided in C3D as 'default', out of the > box > > settings that would even come close for any firm around here. > > > > sc > > > > > >
*Dave Simeone
Message 16 of 32 (86 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-23-2004 07:10 AM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Hi all - This is a very interesting and informative trail. Note that we definately review trails such as this to help define future product and program requirements. Here are some things that I've gotten out of the trail... 1. The CAD Manager will (or should) have the primary responsibility for defining the styles used in your organization. 2. We need to make the intial creation of styles easier for the CAD Manager 3. We need to make it easier to add to your style libraries (add new styles, copy/adjust existing styles for new submittal agencies, etc) 4. Make styles more portable (make it easier to move one or more styles) 5. Come up with a solution to handle unique conditions. Styles can be created for what you typically encounter. However, creating a label for a unique situation will take farm more effort than a simple text label. However, simple text labels don't have the same dynamic behavior, etc. 6. Need to focus on better documentation and other resources specifically for those who will be building these styles 7. Need to foster the growth of sharing styles and folks building styles for sale 8. We need to keep the system flexible enough to meet an incredibly diverse range of needs - while making it easy and clear for easy type user! Note - there are bunch of style "feature" requirements that we are aware of and working through. Thanks for the input and feel free to add to this list. Dave S "Don Reichle" wrote in message news:40366f09$1_2@newsprd01... > It would help immensely to get a users "read" on how long it takes to set up > the different types of Styles in use for C3D. I am aware that there are > default Styles provided with the app, but we all have different agency > requirements that we must meet. And no two agencies agree on how they want > to see the data represented (not even when only a freeway separates them > from each other). > > So could you kind folks inundate me with some ballpark numbers on how long > it takes to set up a new Style for use in production from the canned ones > provided? > > Please address Points, Grading, Surfaces, Alignments; whatever is currently > a part of the app. > > I asked this same question of the Dan & Dave show today on the Webcast, so > I'm specifically looking to see if you agree with their estimation. Checking > practice with theory, you see. > > TIA, > -- > Don Reichle > "King of Work-Arounds" > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > >
*Don Reichle
Message 17 of 32 (86 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-23-2004 11:06 AM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Well Dave, thanks for outlining most of the things that I don't care for about the direction the product is taking. I've answered each one below. If you would do a sampling through your resellers of the median size of users within a licensed site, my hypothesis is that you would find the result heavily weighted in the five to ten user area. Most of those sites would not have (and maybe could not afford) a Cad Manager to handle the daily tasks of maintaining the network of Styles necessary to keep all the jurisdictions happy in the region they serve. The opinion was raised recently regarding regional standardization of drafting styles. As I said before, we are a nation of individuals, and therefore value our "bubble space". In my earlier analogy the cities of Eugene and Springfield in Oregon are only separated by Interstate 5, but you would never know it by looking at the plans they want the engineers to produce for their approval. To add to the mix then you throw in Lane County and Oregon DOT. All have different standards of linetype, lineweight, text height, data necessary on plans, etc. I'm not sure that my hypothetical majority will embrace the thought of applying the necessary maintenance of Styles as C3D evolves over its lifespan. Here is my take on the list of issues you bring up: 1. As I said most of your user base does not have a Cad Manager, or if they do it's probably the same person that signs all the paychecks. So this is probably not something they want added to their job description. 2. This would help that pill more easily be swallowed. 3. Make the library site-specific instead of dwg file specific, so that changes to styles would cascade throughout the office once implemented without the need to open each and every dwg file where they have been applied. 4. Once the Styles become site-specific this issue would disappear. 5. If the programmers in NH would just develop their own brand of Mtext (Ctext?) that would be dynamic, ala Labels this issue would disappear. 6. Instead of creating a hierarchy of Enlightened Ones, evaluate how to make the creation and maintenance of Styles easy enough for a novice to use. We don't want to be left in ignorance once the Enlightened Ones either die or are lured away by better percs. 7. Since Styles are inherently regional in nature (regions possibly as small as 25 miles) how will Robert Steltman in Canada know anything about what types of Styles I need in Santa Cruz County, CA, and therefore be able to honestly service such a broad clientele? (Just one example) 8. On most dialog boxes there is an Advanced button where you hide the additional flexible options. -- Don Reichle "King of Work-Arounds" Ifland Engineers, Inc. "Dave Simeone" wrote in message news:403a17d3$1_1@newsprd01... > Hi all - This is a very interesting and informative trail. Note that we > definately review trails such as this to help define future product and > program requirements. Here are some things that I've gotten out of the > trail... > > 1. The CAD Manager will (or should) have the primary responsibility for > defining the styles used in your organization. > 2. We need to make the intial creation of styles easier for the CAD Manager > 3. We need to make it easier to add to your style libraries (add new styles, > copy/adjust existing styles for new submittal agencies, etc) > 4. Make styles more portable (make it easier to move one or more styles) > 5. Come up with a solution to handle unique conditions. Styles can be > created for what you typically encounter. However, creating a label for a > unique situation will take farm more effort than a simple text label. > However, simple text labels don't have the same dynamic behavior, etc. > 6. Need to focus on better documentation and other resources specifically > for those who will be building these styles > 7. Need to foster the growth of sharing styles and folks building styles for > sale > 8. We need to keep the system flexible enough to meet an incredibly diverse > range of needs - while making it easy and clear for easy type user! > > Note - there are bunch of style "feature" requirements that we are aware of > and working through. > > Thanks for the input and feel free to add to this list. > Dave S > > "Don Reichle" wrote in message > news:40366f09$1_2@newsprd01... > > It would help immensely to get a users "read" on how long it takes to set > up > > the different types of Styles in use for C3D. I am aware that there are > > default Styles provided with the app, but we all have different agency > > requirements that we must meet. And no two agencies agree on how they want > > to see the data represented (not even when only a freeway separates them > > from each other). > > > > So could you kind folks inundate me with some ballpark numbers on how long > > it takes to set up a new Style for use in production from the canned ones > > provided? > > > > Please address Points, Grading, Surfaces, Alignments; whatever is > currently > > a part of the app. > > > > I asked this same question of the Dan & Dave show today on the Webcast, so > > I'm specifically looking to see if you agree with their estimation. > Checking > > practice with theory, you see. > > > > TIA, > > -- > > Don Reichle > > "King of Work-Arounds" > > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > > > > >
*Laurie Comerford
Message 18 of 32 (86 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-23-2004 12:33 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Hi, It would seem to me that there is at least a possibility that these dictatorial local "I will do exactly as I like and insist you do it too" organisations you advocate will love styles and will create their own to ensure consistency of output from their system. Once the style exists, provided that the style can be imported into a drawing, it wont matter what the drawing submitter sends them. In fact maybe all the Authority needs is to receive the LandXML file and then they can get any reports they need in the exact format they need. Development thoughts: Create a mechanism to "batch import" a "style template" to all drawings in a directory. Create very good documentation to make it easy to learn how to create the "Style template" -- Laurie Comerford CADApps www.cadapps.com.au "Don Reichle" wrote in message news:403a4f1c_1@newsprd01... > Well Dave, thanks for outlining most of the things that I don't care for > about the direction the product is taking. I've answered each one below. > > If you would do a sampling through your resellers of the median size of > users within a licensed site, my hypothesis is that you would find the > result heavily weighted in the five to ten user area. Most of those sites > would not have (and maybe could not afford) a Cad Manager to handle the > daily tasks of maintaining the network of Styles necessary to keep all the > jurisdictions happy in the region they serve. > > The opinion was raised recently regarding regional standardization of > drafting styles. As I said before, we are a nation of individuals, and > therefore value our "bubble space". In my earlier analogy the cities of > Eugene and Springfield in Oregon are only separated by Interstate 5, but you > would never know it by looking at the plans they want the engineers to > produce for their approval. To add to the mix then you throw in Lane County > and Oregon DOT. All have different standards of linetype, lineweight, text > height, data necessary on plans, etc. > > I'm not sure that my hypothetical majority will embrace the thought of > applying the necessary maintenance of Styles as C3D evolves over its > lifespan. > > Here is my take on the list of issues you bring up: > 1. As I said most of your user base does not have a Cad Manager, or if they > do it's probably the same person that signs all the paychecks. So this is > probably not something they want added to their job description. > 2. This would help that pill more easily be swallowed. > 3. Make the library site-specific instead of dwg file specific, so that > changes to styles would cascade throughout the office once implemented > without the need to open each and every dwg file where they have been > applied. > 4. Once the Styles become site-specific this issue would disappear. > 5. If the programmers in NH would just develop their own brand of Mtext > (Ctext?) that would be dynamic, ala Labels this issue would disappear. > 6. Instead of creating a hierarchy of Enlightened Ones, evaluate how to make > the creation and maintenance of Styles easy enough for a novice to use. We > don't want to be left in ignorance once the Enlightened Ones either die or > are lured away by better percs. > 7. Since Styles are inherently regional in nature (regions possibly as small > as 25 miles) how will Robert Steltman in Canada know anything about what > types of Styles I need in Santa Cruz County, CA, and therefore be able to > honestly service such a broad clientele? (Just one example) > 8. On most dialog boxes there is an Advanced button where you hide the > additional flexible options. > -- > Don Reichle > "King of Work-Arounds" > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > "Dave Simeone" wrote in message > news:403a17d3$1_1@newsprd01... > > Hi all - This is a very interesting and informative trail. Note that we > > definately review trails such as this to help define future product and > > program requirements. Here are some things that I've gotten out of the > > trail... > > > > 1. The CAD Manager will (or should) have the primary responsibility for > > defining the styles used in your organization. > > 2. We need to make the intial creation of styles easier for the CAD > Manager > > 3. We need to make it easier to add to your style libraries (add new > styles, > > copy/adjust existing styles for new submittal agencies, etc) > > 4. Make styles more portable (make it easier to move one or more styles) > > 5. Come up with a solution to handle unique conditions. Styles can be > > created for what you typically encounter. However, creating a label for a > > unique situation will take farm more effort than a simple text label. > > However, simple text labels don't have the same dynamic behavior, etc. > > 6. Need to focus on better documentation and other resources specifically > > for those who will be building these styles > > 7. Need to foster the growth of sharing styles and folks building styles > for > > sale > > 8. We need to keep the system flexible enough to meet an incredibly > diverse > > range of needs - while making it easy and clear for easy type user! > > > > Note - there are bunch of style "feature" requirements that we are aware > of > > and working through. > > > > Thanks for the input and feel free to add to this list. > > Dave S > > > > "Don Reichle" wrote in message > > news:40366f09$1_2@newsprd01... > > > It would help immensely to get a users "read" on how long it takes to > set > > up > > > the different types of Styles in use for C3D. I am aware that there are > > > default Styles provided with the app, but we all have different agency > > > requirements that we must meet. And no two agencies agree on how they > want > > > to see the data represented (not even when only a freeway separates them > > > from each other). > > > > > > So could you kind folks inundate me with some ballpark numbers on how > long > > > it takes to set up a new Style for use in production from the canned > ones > > > provided? > > > > > > Please address Points, Grading, Surfaces, Alignments; whatever is > > currently > > > a part of the app. > > > > > > I asked this same question of the Dan & Dave show today on the Webcast, > so > > > I'm specifically looking to see if you agree with their estimation. > > Checking > > > practice with theory, you see. > > > > > > TIA, > > > -- > > > Don Reichle > > > "King of Work-Arounds" > > > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > >
*Don Reichle
Message 19 of 32 (86 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-23-2004 12:53 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Not to rain on your parade Laurie but I hope the idea is to have the core developers change the code to what we want, instead of taking what they give us and writing creative code to get what we want. It seems that they actually want to listen at the moment, so that's why we are trying so vociferously to swing them over to the thought of Site-Specific Styles, instead of Dwg-Specific Styles. Unless you really appreciate creating code to batch the process into all the dwgs in a folder, it seems to me far easier to have the changes react to a System Style. That way you no longer need wonder if the current standards have been applied to that project. As much as I am proud to wear the self-imposed title, I would gladly step down in favor of an application that responded to my requests in a timely manner. -- Don Reichle "King of Work-Arounds" Ifland Engineers, Inc. "Laurie Comerford" wrote in message news:403a62ce_1@newsprd01... > Hi, > > It would seem to me that there is at least a possibility that these > dictatorial local "I will do exactly as I like and insist you do it too" > organisations you advocate will love styles and will create their own to > ensure consistency of output from their system. > > Once the style exists, provided that the style can be imported into a > drawing, it wont matter what the drawing submitter sends them. > > In fact maybe all the Authority needs is to receive the LandXML file and > then they can get any reports they need in the exact format they need. > > Development thoughts: > Create a mechanism to "batch import" a "style template" to all drawings in a > directory. > Create very good documentation to make it easy to learn how to create the > "Style template" > -- > > > Laurie Comerford > CADApps > www.cadapps.com.au > > > > "Don Reichle" wrote in message > news:403a4f1c_1@newsprd01... > > Well Dave, thanks for outlining most of the things that I don't care for > > about the direction the product is taking. I've answered each one below. > > > > If you would do a sampling through your resellers of the median size of > > users within a licensed site, my hypothesis is that you would find the > > result heavily weighted in the five to ten user area. Most of those sites > > would not have (and maybe could not afford) a Cad Manager to handle the > > daily tasks of maintaining the network of Styles necessary to keep all the > > jurisdictions happy in the region they serve. > > > > The opinion was raised recently regarding regional standardization of > > drafting styles. As I said before, we are a nation of individuals, and > > therefore value our "bubble space". In my earlier analogy the cities of > > Eugene and Springfield in Oregon are only separated by Interstate 5, but > you > > would never know it by looking at the plans they want the engineers to > > produce for their approval. To add to the mix then you throw in Lane > County > > and Oregon DOT. All have different standards of linetype, lineweight, text > > height, data necessary on plans, etc. > > > > I'm not sure that my hypothetical majority will embrace the thought of > > applying the necessary maintenance of Styles as C3D evolves over its > > lifespan. > > > > Here is my take on the list of issues you bring up: > > 1. As I said most of your user base does not have a Cad Manager, or if > they > > do it's probably the same person that signs all the paychecks. So this is > > probably not something they want added to their job description. > > 2. This would help that pill more easily be swallowed. > > 3. Make the library site-specific instead of dwg file specific, so that > > changes to styles would cascade throughout the office once implemented > > without the need to open each and every dwg file where they have been > > applied. > > 4. Once the Styles become site-specific this issue would disappear. > > 5. If the programmers in NH would just develop their own brand of Mtext > > (Ctext?) that would be dynamic, ala Labels this issue would disappear. > > 6. Instead of creating a hierarchy of Enlightened Ones, evaluate how to > make > > the creation and maintenance of Styles easy enough for a novice to use. We > > don't want to be left in ignorance once the Enlightened Ones either die or > > are lured away by better percs. > > 7. Since Styles are inherently regional in nature (regions possibly as > small > > as 25 miles) how will Robert Steltman in Canada know anything about what > > types of Styles I need in Santa Cruz County, CA, and therefore be able to > > honestly service such a broad clientele? (Just one example) > > 8. On most dialog boxes there is an Advanced button where you hide the > > additional flexible options. > > -- > > Don Reichle > > "King of Work-Arounds" > > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > > > "Dave Simeone" wrote in message > > news:403a17d3$1_1@newsprd01... > > > Hi all - This is a very interesting and informative trail. Note that we > > > definately review trails such as this to help define future product and > > > program requirements. Here are some things that I've gotten out of the > > > trail... > > > > > > 1. The CAD Manager will (or should) have the primary responsibility for > > > defining the styles used in your organization. > > > 2. We need to make the intial creation of styles easier for the CAD > > Manager > > > 3. We need to make it easier to add to your style libraries (add new > > styles, > > > copy/adjust existing styles for new submittal agencies, etc) > > > 4. Make styles more portable (make it easier to move one or more styles) > > > 5. Come up with a solution to handle unique conditions. Styles can be > > > created for what you typically encounter. However, creating a label for > a > > > unique situation will take farm more effort than a simple text label. > > > However, simple text labels don't have the same dynamic behavior, etc. > > > 6. Need to focus on better documentation and other resources > specifically > > > for those who will be building these styles > > > 7. Need to foster the growth of sharing styles and folks building styles > > for > > > sale > > > 8. We need to keep the system flexible enough to meet an incredibly > > diverse > > > range of needs - while making it easy and clear for easy type user! > > > > > > Note - there are bunch of style "feature" requirements that we are aware > > of > > > and working through. > > > > > > Thanks for the input and feel free to add to this list. > > > Dave S > > > > > > "Don Reichle" wrote in message > > > news:40366f09$1_2@newsprd01... > > > > It would help immensely to get a users "read" on how long it takes to > > set > > > up > > > > the different types of Styles in use for C3D. I am aware that there > are > > > > default Styles provided with the app, but we all have different agency > > > > requirements that we must meet. And no two agencies agree on how they > > want > > > > to see the data represented (not even when only a freeway separates > them > > > > from each other). > > > > > > > > So could you kind folks inundate me with some ballpark numbers on how > > long > > > > it takes to set up a new Style for use in production from the canned > > ones > > > > provided? > > > > > > > > Please address Points, Grading, Surfaces, Alignments; whatever is > > > currently > > > > a part of the app. > > > > > > > > I asked this same question of the Dan & Dave show today on the > Webcast, > > so > > > > I'm specifically looking to see if you agree with their estimation. > > > Checking > > > > practice with theory, you see. > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > -- > > > > Don Reichle > > > > "King of Work-Arounds" > > > > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
*Strahimir Antoljak
Message 20 of 32 (86 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-23-2004 02:02 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Hi, > dictatorial local "I will do exactly as I like and insist you do it too" I like that :smileyhappy: I believe it is not only about setting up standards and styles, I think it may be much more than that, a new milestone in design process, so it is no wonder a resistance is inevitable. There was a time when manual (pen and paper) drafting was turning into computer aided design. There were believers in that new technology and those who were skeptic at least, or firm believers it wouldn't ever pick up. It seems that computer aided design, as we know it, has reached its saturation point. It became tedious to do stuff 'manually' in CAD over and over again. There has been a significant amount of years of experience accumulated about how things are done, and how they can be done more efficiently (with smart objects and styles). And as history repeats itself there are people who accept it immediately, who accept it after a while, and those who will maybe never accept it. It would not be surprising that due to new technologies and procedures currently available, Tool Palettes, new Sheet Sets and tables in AutoCAD 2005, LandXML, GIS, portable devices, more frequently heard model exchanging as opposed to paper exchanging, etc. companies may need to re-think they entire CAD(/GIS) setups to gain full advantage of all. It may end up not by setting up Styles only. And that may take some time. Even more time than what James suggested (3-4 weeks, BTW I admire him to say something like that out loud. Very few would dare say such thing, and everyone else would scream on that as financially non justifiable). Also, it would really be curious to find out a results of "sampling through (autodesk's) resellers of the median size of users within a licensed site". My hypothesis is that companies will come to conclusion sooner or later, that a sophisticated Cad Manager (is PE, is skilled designer, is an understanding boss, and even have some programming skills) will become more of a necessity not a question of affordability. Once Civil3D becomes alive a skilled Cad Manager and a handful of skilled and strongly CAD oriented designers could replace a whole army of 'regular' designers and drafters, and thus probably justifying their cost. Anyway, next 2 years will be interesting. Thanks, -- Strah @ Langan "Laurie Comerford" wrote in message news:403a62ce_1@newsprd01... > Hi, > > It would seem to me that there is at least a possibility that these > dictatorial local "I will do exactly as I like and insist you do it too" > organisations you advocate will love styles and will create their own to > ensure consistency of output from their system. > > Once the style exists, provided that the style can be imported into a > drawing, it wont matter what the drawing submitter sends them. > > In fact maybe all the Authority needs is to receive the LandXML file and > then they can get any reports they need in the exact format they need. > > Development thoughts: > Create a mechanism to "batch import" a "style template" to all drawings in a > directory. > Create very good documentation to make it easy to learn how to create the > "Style template" > -- > > > Laurie Comerford > CADApps > www.cadapps.com.au > > > > "Don Reichle" wrote in message > news:403a4f1c_1@newsprd01... > > Well Dave, thanks for outlining most of the things that I don't care for > > about the direction the product is taking. I've answered each one below. > > > > If you would do a sampling through your resellers of the median size of > > users within a licensed site, my hypothesis is that you would find the > > result heavily weighted in the five to ten user area. Most of those sites > > would not have (and maybe could not afford) a Cad Manager to handle the > > daily tasks of maintaining the network of Styles necessary to keep all the > > jurisdictions happy in the region they serve. > > > > The opinion was raised recently regarding regional standardization of > > drafting styles. As I said before, we are a nation of individuals, and > > therefore value our "bubble space". In my earlier analogy the cities of > > Eugene and Springfield in Oregon are only separated by Interstate 5, but > you > > would never know it by looking at the plans they want the engineers to > > produce for their approval. To add to the mix then you throw in Lane > County > > and Oregon DOT. All have different standards of linetype, lineweight, text > > height, data necessary on plans, etc. > > > > I'm not sure that my hypothetical majority will embrace the thought of > > applying the necessary maintenance of Styles as C3D evolves over its > > lifespan. > > > > Here is my take on the list of issues you bring up: > > 1. As I said most of your user base does not have a Cad Manager, or if > they > > do it's probably the same person that signs all the paychecks. So this is > > probably not something they want added to their job description. > > 2. This would help that pill more easily be swallowed. > > 3. Make the library site-specific instead of dwg file specific, so that > > changes to styles would cascade throughout the office once implemented > > without the need to open each and every dwg file where they have been > > applied. > > 4. Once the Styles become site-specific this issue would disappear. > > 5. If the programmers in NH would just develop their own brand of Mtext > > (Ctext?) that would be dynamic, ala Labels this issue would disappear. > > 6. Instead of creating a hierarchy of Enlightened Ones, evaluate how to > make > > the creation and maintenance of Styles easy enough for a novice to use. We > > don't want to be left in ignorance once the Enlightened Ones either die or > > are lured away by better percs. > > 7. Since Styles are inherently regional in nature (regions possibly as > small > > as 25 miles) how will Robert Steltman in Canada know anything about what > > types of Styles I need in Santa Cruz County, CA, and therefore be able to > > honestly service such a broad clientele? (Just one example) > > 8. On most dialog boxes there is an Advanced button where you hide the > > additional flexible options. > > -- > > Don Reichle > > "King of Work-Arounds" > > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > > > "Dave Simeone" wrote in message > > news:403a17d3$1_1@newsprd01... > > > Hi all - This is a very interesting and informative trail. Note that we > > > definately review trails such as this to help define future product and > > > program requirements. Here are some things that I've gotten out of the > > > trail... > > > > > > 1. The CAD Manager will (or should) have the primary responsibility for > > > defining the styles used in your organization. > > > 2. We need to make the intial creation of styles easier for the CAD > > Manager > > > 3. We need to make it easier to add to your style libraries (add new > > styles, > > > copy/adjust existing styles for new submittal agencies, etc) > > > 4. Make styles more portable (make it easier to move one or more styles) > > > 5. Come up with a solution to handle unique conditions. Styles can be > > > created for what you typically encounter. However, creating a label for > a > > > unique situation will take farm more effort than a simple text label. > > > However, simple text labels don't have the same dynamic behavior, etc. > > > 6. Need to focus on better documentation and other resources > specifically > > > for those who will be building these styles > > > 7. Need to foster the growth of sharing styles and folks building styles > > for > > > sale > > > 8. We need to keep the system flexible enough to meet an incredibly > > diverse > > > range of needs - while making it easy and clear for easy type user! > > > > > > Note - there are bunch of style "feature" requirements that we are aware > > of > > > and working through. > > > > > > Thanks for the input and feel free to add to this list. > > > Dave S > > > > > > "Don Reichle" wrote in message > > > news:40366f09$1_2@newsprd01... > > > > It would help immensely to get a users "read" on how long it takes to > > set > > > up > > > > the different types of Styles in use for C3D. I am aware that there > are > > > > default Styles provided with the app, but we all have different agency > > > > requirements that we must meet. And no two agencies agree on how they > > want > > > > to see the data represented (not even when only a freeway separates > them > > > > from each other). > > > > > > > > So could you kind folks inundate me with some ballpark numbers on how > > long > > > > it takes to set up a new Style for use in production from the canned > > ones > > > > provided? > > > > > > > > Please address Points, Grading, Surfaces, Alignments; whatever is > > > currently > > > > a part of the app. > > > > > > > > I asked this same question of the Dan & Dave show today on the > Webcast, > > so > > > > I'm specifically looking to see if you agree with their estimation. > > > Checking > > > > practice with theory, you see. > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > -- > > > > Don Reichle > > > > "King of Work-Arounds" > > > > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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