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BIM and civil 3D

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Message 1 of 17
brian.dougherty
4007 Views, 16 Replies

BIM and civil 3D

I'm doing reseacrh for school about the inplematation of Civil 3D, infastructure, and commerical projects as a BIM project. Is there any blogs, forums, guides, etc. out there that help explain the process or capabilities of integrating the Civil 3D with revit or navisworks.

 

Any companies that are using this project for civil or infastructure projects. I know that BIm is leading the industry in structural projects. I need to find some information on civil capabilities.

 

thank you,

Brian Dougherty

LEED Green Associate

16 REPLIES 16
Message 2 of 17
neilyj666
in reply to: brian.dougherty

in my opinion civil 3d is not a bim tool and has a long way to go to get close to being one.

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 3 of 17
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: brian.dougherty

While you research that keep in mind all the magnificent edifices built with pencils, paper and less.Smiley Wink

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
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Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

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Message 4 of 17

What is BIM?

 

BIM à la Wikipedia

 

In short, modeling a building from start to end (planning to demolition) in an information rich environment that allows the stakeholders to communicate, coordinate, design, and operate in an efficient matter.

 

Architects, engineers, and contractors have begun to realize the benefit of using the BIM process (notice I didn’t say BIM software) when designing buildings and have started to want the civil side of the project to be a part of the BIM process.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that the dirt side (aka civil) and the wood side (aka architect) do things so completely differently from each other that bridging the gap between the two has been very difficult. There have been improvements though. Using the Bridge Design tools within Revit Structure, you can now import a surface directly into Revit but, if the surface changes, the import process has to be done again so that pretty much breaks down the BIM workflow.

 

If you are looking for a “Civil BIM Software” you are going to be disappointed with anything you find. Autodesk has a suite of software that does a good job of fitting within the “BIM for Civil” process. This is the closest thing out there to meet that definition that I'm aware of. It still has a long way to go to fully meet the definition of BIM in my opinion (I'm sure there are those that will disagree with me on both sides, "It's definitely BIM" and "It's definitely not BIM"). One of the problems is, there's no real definition of what BIM is on the dirt side.

 

I think the Autodesk Infrastructure Modeler (aka AIM) has a lot of potential to fill this gap. In its current state, there is no way it could ever be used for design but, because it's database driven (a .SQLite database to be specific) it has HUGE potential and I'm excited to see where Autodesk is going to take it.

 

These are my rambling thoughts on a snowy Sunday evening after teaching Civil 3D all week sick as a dog. Hopefully you'll be able to get a bit of information out of this.

 

For some more information, HERE is a link to the Autodesk website where they have some more information on BIM for Infrastructure.

Brian J. Hailey, P.E.



GEI Consultants
My Civil 3D Blog

Message 5 of 17
Neilw_05
in reply to: BrianHailey

While Autodesk has made commendable efforts to integrate their products, it is especially apparent to C3D users that there are considerable problems with the current paradigm. C3D is not compatable with older versions of itself nor is it even integrated with Map or Autocad. Almost every interoperability workflow requires some sort of translation.

 

Brian, in regard to your comment: "if you are looking for a “Civil BIM Software” you are going to be disappointed with anything you find. Autodesk has a suite of software that does a good job of fitting within the “BIM for Civil” process. This is the closest thing out there to meet that definition that I'm aware of.", I'd like to note that Bentley has adopted a different paradigm with their products which makes them considerably more BIM centric. They have placed much more of the model intelligence in the core graphics engine (Microstation) which allows the intelligence to readily be shared across all the vertical products.

 

As a case in point, a surface model is a native cad element in Microstation. Thus an architect can XREF a drawing containing a civil site with a surface model, display and render it as needed, integrate his building model and see that surface model when he cuts sections through his building. Conversely, civil product users can reference a building model (and any other 3D cad model, including 3D symbols and underground structures) into their civil models and have them show up in their site and road cross sections. Since all of this intelligence is achieved with native CAD graphics, the data can be dynamically shared via references (XREFS), so there is no need for convoluted data sharing schemes nor for special plugins (i.e. object enablers) or file translation to view or consume the graphics. I won't go in to the new civil technology that is soon to be released, but suffice it to say it too will be similarly interoperable.

 

As this technology is new it's still early to make any concrete assesements about's pros and cons but potentially it should address the interoperability issues more effectively.

 

PS, Kudos to you for your dedication to assisting others with your experience and knowlege even when under the weather. Your posts are invaluable.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 6 of 17
neilyj666
in reply to: Neilw_05


@Neilw wrote:

While Autodesk has made commendable efforts to integrate their products, it is especially apparent to C3D users that there are considerable problems with the current paradigm. C3D is not compatable with older versions of itself nor is it even integrated with Map or Autocad. Almost every interoperability workflow requires some sort of translation.



...it would be great to be able to work in Civil 3D and use on alignment/simple polyline to create a buffer without having to go through the MAP rigmarole.

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 7 of 17
jprince
in reply to: brian.dougherty

It's all about the people and the process.  Software is always going to have it's limits, it's about making it work for you.  We have been implementing Civil 3D/BIM/whatever you want to call in into site development projects (i.e. Building projects) for several years.  There is much value to be had in doing this.  Although Revit and Civil 3D don't talk together too well, it is good enough if you set it up to work for you and utilize Navisworks... and are working with building consultant individuals who have some sense of the civil world.  Unfortunately, that is rare.  But I don't blame them, the importance and complexity of a building compared to a site is much greater, so there is little care or attention given to a site.  So the civil engineer is on their own...

 

john

http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=57924746&trk=hb_tab_pro_top

 

Message 8 of 17
MikeEvansUK
in reply to: jprince

Agreed.

 

We are using Bim here on some contracts and it has become clear that when a client & Architect thinks of BIM what they really mean is Revit.

 

Our firm consists of Civil & Structural engineers and we use Civil3d for Civil & Revit for structure. I has been a very hard slog of trial and error to work between us in Revit & Civil 3d and educate the client & Architects about the definition of BIM and the software.

 

They expect us to do everything in one platform, kind of like trying to whisk and egg with a spoon. You'd use a fork wouldn't you? Some other companies are designing Drainage in Revit Structure but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

The revit guys cant use the Civil3d pipe networks without an Acis export, surfaces come into revit but unless they are "Flat" do not produce anything near what was designed in Civil 3d and as such are unusable due to the revit program logic. Working the other way around I can import their foundations or building but only as a 3d solid as the Site model export is not avaliable in Revit Structure. When I section this the results are truely awfull.

 

Corridor models are the only good one here, the corridor solid tool (If it works) does produce good results but without parametric data.

 

During this process of intergration we have learned some lessons which may be of assistance.

 

Surfaces in Revit. Explode and convert the faces to Regions then save them in a new file. In Revit import the surface as a Mass object Family. Now the surface looks correct and is sectionable and anotatable for the most part.

 

Pipes, Explode in a 3D view and export as a Acis Sat. Import into Revit as a Mass object family. Now the network is sectionable and anotatable for the most part.

 

Shared coordinates. Don't go there, if they change after the revit file was first create it cuases more hassle than it's worth. At the moment I reconmend to realign the Civil3d model to the Revit 0,0,0 project base point (selected from a model export or Grid intersection) prior to export and always include the grids in the model file export so that the Revit user can align the files.

 

Obviously in doing these workarounds you always loose the parametric data assigned to all the objects, which is not the goal here.

 

It seems that currently the only true way to work between the two programs in BIM is in Navisworks or simmilar BIM software platforms as When we say BIM What we really mean is Navisworks or a simmilar 4D/5D software application.

 

What we need is a Navisworks Import tool for each program then share the data through that.

 

M.

 

 

Mike Evans

Civil3D 2022 English
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3820 CPU @ 3.60GHz (8 CPUs), ~4.0GHz With 32768MB RAM, AMD FirePro V4900, Dedicated Memory: 984 MB, Shared Memory: 814 MB

Message 9 of 17
troma
in reply to: MikeEvansUK

What is 4D / 5D ?


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 10 of 17
neilyj666
in reply to: troma

I presume 4D includes the time diemnsion and 5D includes the cost dimension (all relating to the XYZ to build the object in question)

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Message 11 of 17
MikeEvansUK
in reply to: neilyj666

Yes. 4D is the Time (site/works Program) & 5D is costing. 6D When it arrives in the program will be "unforseen circumstances". Smiley Very Happy

Mike Evans

Civil3D 2022 English
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3820 CPU @ 3.60GHz (8 CPUs), ~4.0GHz With 32768MB RAM, AMD FirePro V4900, Dedicated Memory: 984 MB, Shared Memory: 814 MB

Message 12 of 17
troma
in reply to: MikeEvansUK

Cool, thanks.

I'm familiar with the 4th dimension being time, but I thought in the BIM world it may refer to some other intelligence on the part of the element.  What does "time" mean in this context?  How long it takes to construct?  The lifecycle of the building?  Or 'this part needs to be in place before we can build that part' dependency?  As you can tell I'm not familiar with BIM in the slightest, just find it interesting.

 

Anyway, I thought time is money!  So aren't 4D and 5D the same thing? Smiley LOL


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 13 of 17
apweng
in reply to: brian.dougherty

I wrote an article in AUGI World January 2013 Edition relating to C3D and BIM - if you're interested...

 

http://www.augi.com/augiworld/january-2013

 

Andrew

 

 

Message 14 of 17
niallmiz1
in reply to: MikeEvansUK

Hi Mike,

 

I appreciate this is an old thread but it has resounding similarities with a problem I am facing now. I am a highway engineer using Civil 3D and we are working on a development where the client wants everything to comply with a certain level of BIM. In Civil 3D 2016, we are of course able to export surface models, corridors or corridor solids directly in to IFC format, which the project manager successfully opens in Navisworks/360 viewer/ Solibri etc and reviews against the architect's and MEC consultant's models - originally produced in Revit.

 

However, although our Civil 3D to IFC export works well visually and can be used for 'clash detection', the project manager is unable to further interrogate our IFC file for costing purposes. i.e. No quantities or descriptive elements linked to the Civil 3D model are transferred. Is this simply a software shortcoming, in that elements produced in Civil 3D still lose a lot of geometric details when transferring to IFC? (unlike Revit where each drawing object seems to have been designed with IFC export in mind).

 

Or have there been advancements since your original post, and is there a workable way around this issue to ensure all details applied and visible in Civil 3D models are transferred when exporting to IFC?

 

Thanks,

Niall

Message 15 of 17
MikeEvansUK
in reply to: niallmiz1

Sadly there is not any method OTB to export the data you want to IFc. It it possible using the "New Feature" property sets which is available in all releases since 2013. If you add the detail there then it will pass through to IFC properties, the other option is through QTO and excel but once again not OTB.

 

I have with success used excel & Navisworks to add the data I need to the Navisworks model using the Handle as a reference, I have exported the information from the model via the API to excel where I populated the details and passed back to navisworks.

 

I would expect to see more functionality on this in the future from the team.

 

Something to bear in mind. Navisworks cost program is very dumb and really only deals with single items. it is difficult or impossible to get multiple length values into navis (for trenches) it wants simplified L*w or Area * L, I usually back things up where asked with a excel sheet of information and costs so manual costing can be done.

 

 

M

Mike Evans

Civil3D 2022 English
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3820 CPU @ 3.60GHz (8 CPUs), ~4.0GHz With 32768MB RAM, AMD FirePro V4900, Dedicated Memory: 984 MB, Shared Memory: 814 MB

Message 16 of 17
niallmiz1
in reply to: MikeEvansUK

Thanks Mike, look forward to increased functionality in this area in the near future. Until then I will try some of the methods you mention above!

Niall
Message 17 of 17
biggeorgef
in reply to: niallmiz1

bim in civil 3d will never happen as long as we are designing with lines and not intelligent objects.

Its not a road, it is sections of 2 to 4 types of materials.

its not a inlet, it is an intelligent object  that has information about the concrete and rebar and max openings it can handle.

its not a lot, it is a 3d space that has a building pad elevation tied to cl of road, drainage swales on each side with elevations at certain points.

its not a waterline, it is a pipe with specific lengths that join together along with bends.

 

objects.

 

architecture software can design a roof with an out line and some slopes.

Turn it upside down and you have a pond.

 

stairs are rise over run with rail definations

ditches are the same thing, just with solid sides

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