You'd think...

[Anonymous]

...AEC objects in ADT3 would work in VIZ? If I have a door in ADT take the
model into VIZ, I should be able to click on the door (or window) in VIZ
and, lo! it's a door object in VIZ, too! Not just a bunch of pretty faces.

...that when you built a roof slab that the fascia and the soffit and the
roof would all actually be DIFFERENT objects so that when you brought them
into VIZ you could assign materials to them....

...ADT3 would finally have a way of displaying and SIMPLY controling face
normals for objects and that any objects created or supplied would have
CORRECT normals.

...A feature would work as advertised or it isn't included. Period. The
end. It's bug free. The feature works as expected and as advertised. If
it doesn't, it doesn't exist. We pay way to much for this to be beta
testers.

[Anonymous]

Comments below:

3D Peruna wrote in message ...
>...AEC objects in ADT3 would work in VIZ? If I have a door in ADT take the
>model into VIZ, I should be able to click on the door (or window) in VIZ
>and, lo! it's a door object in VIZ, too! Not just a bunch of pretty
faces.

I'm not fully clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying that it
should be a door? And it's not? It is when I do it. Can you describe the
process you're using to bring the geometry into VIZ?

Or are you saying that it shouldn't be? (And if so, why the heck not?)

>...that when you built a roof slab that the fascia and the soffit and the
>roof would all actually be DIFFERENT objects so that when you brought them
>into VIZ you could assign materials to them....

The roof and the fascia and the soffit are all part of a single slab object
in ADT, and like the doors above, will come in as a single object in VIZ.
You can control material assignments (as with every other object type from
ADT) using the model display rep colors combined with multi-sub-object
materials in VIZ.

>...ADT3 would finally have a way of displaying and SIMPLY controling face
>normals for objects and that any objects created or supplied would have
>CORRECT normals.

This sounds very bizarre, indeed. One of the benefits of ADT, in particular,
is that when PROPERLY done, imported geometry has very consistent face
normals, and they all face outward, as they should.

>...A feature would work as advertised or it isn't included. Period. The
>end. It's bug free. The feature works as expected and as advertised. If
>it doesn't, it doesn't exist. We pay way to much for this to be beta
>testers.

Something is very fishy here. Everything you describe is contrary to ADT /
VIZ behavior. Can you provide more details as to the exact procedure you are
using to bring your geometry into VIZ? In particular, are you using File
Linking? And if so, what settings are you using?

--
***************************************************************
Please do not email me privately with technical issues
***************************************************************
Matt Dillon
Assistant Moderator - Autodesk Discussion Forums

The D.C. CADD Company, Inc.
http://www.dccadd.com

[Anonymous]

> 3D Peruna wrote in message ...
> >...AEC objects in ADT3 would work in VIZ? If I have a door in ADT take
the
> >model into VIZ, I should be able to click on the door (or window) in VIZ
> >and, lo! it's a door object in VIZ, too! Not just a bunch of pretty
> faces.
>
> I'm not fully clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying that it
> should be a door? And it's not? It is when I do it. Can you describe the
> process you're using to bring the geometry into VIZ?
>
> Or are you saying that it shouldn't be? (And if so, why the heck not?)

If I insert a door in ADT3, and then import the model into VIZ (using
linking), and then I click on the door in viz, it is NOT a door object in
VIZ. It may be called a door, it may be on the door layer but it is not a
VIZ door. I cannot open or close the door as I would a VIZ created door
(you know, click on the animate button, slide it to 100, change the amount
the door is open, and LO, the door is animated). It should be a door
object. Same goes for windows and for stairs and for railings. If the are
AEC objects in ONE program, they should be the same TYPE of object in the
other. A door in ADT3 as "intelligent" properties. This SAME door should
the have "intelligent" properties of a door in VIZ. Now, maybe I'm doing
something wrong, but if I take a door from the standard ADT3 library, insert
in a wall in ADT3 and then link the file into VIZ, the ADT3 door is NOT a
door in VIZ, but a "block" with multi-material ID assigned in the whole
multi-material mess.

>
> >...that when you built a roof slab that the fascia and the soffit and the
> >roof would all actually be DIFFERENT objects so that when you brought
them
> >into VIZ you could assign materials to them....
>
> The roof and the fascia and the soffit are all part of a single slab
object
> in ADT, and like the doors above, will come in as a single object in VIZ.
> You can control material assignments (as with every other object type from
> ADT) using the model display rep colors combined with multi-sub-object
> materials in VIZ.
>
Yep. That is exactly the problem. The multi-sub-object material thing is a
mess. It seems like a hack to me. I would like to have the option to apply
material by whatever I would like to apply the material by (layer, color,
layer then color, whatever). I guess the real hang up I have is that I
don't think of the roof as the roof and the fascia and the soffit and the
gutter and the...and the...I think of them as SEPARATE objects. I'm used to
using a different program to model with, then importing the DXF into VIZ.
After using the "automatic" process a few times, I still say the old way of
doing it is faster and more reliable, that is, the results are always what I
expect with the old way. The new file linking way doesn't always behave as
expected, or desired.

> >...ADT3 would finally have a way of displaying and SIMPLY controling face
> >normals for objects and that any objects created or supplied would have
> >CORRECT normals.
>
> This sounds very bizarre, indeed. One of the benefits of ADT, in
particular,
> is that when PROPERLY done, imported geometry has very consistent face
> normals, and they all face outward, as they should.

Check the standard ADT window frames. I think you'll find that they don't
always come in with all of the normals correct. I've also seens several
posts on the 3dstudio-viz.filelinking NG. And PROPERLY done is the key. I
don't all of it is.

> >...A feature would work as advertised or it isn't included. Period. The
> >end. It's bug free. The feature works as expected and as advertised.
If
> >it doesn't, it doesn't exist. We pay way to much for this to be beta
> >testers.
>
> Something is very fishy here. Everything you describe is contrary to ADT /
> VIZ behavior. Can you provide more details as to the exact procedure you
are
> using to bring your geometry into VIZ? In particular, are you using File
> Linking? And if so, what settings are you using?

I'm not going to specify every problem, as they are quite well documented in
the many NG's. But the overall idea here is that the connection between VIZ
and ADT3 is surface level. It really doesn't work the way I expected it to
after reading the marketing material. My fault for believing in the hype.

[Anonymous]

I have to disagree with you. I've not had a problem with normals, on window
frames or anything else. What settings are you using when linking into VIZ?
Turn Weld off and make sure Unify normals is on. Also make sure that cap
closed objects is off.

I personally find Multi-Sub-Object materials far from a hack. With a
methodical and logical approach, I can quickly and easily assign materials
to all of my walls with one selection, and likewise doors, windows and
everything else.

I don't know that I'd want the doors in ADT to be "VIZ Doors" in VIZ. VIZ
doors don't have the SAME intelligence as the doors in ADT. The VIZ doors
are meant to be representational - for visualization. The ADT door objects
go a little further. That said, I agree that it would be nice if the ADT
doors could be animated.

--
***************************************************************
Please do not email me privately with technical issues
***************************************************************
Matt Dillon
Assistant Moderator - Autodesk Discussion Forums

The D.C. CADD Company, Inc.
http://www.dccadd.com
3D Peruna wrote in message
<4D5B1ED94771587853B48487BDC820D9@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb>...
>> 3D Peruna wrote in message ...
>> >...AEC objects in ADT3 would work in VIZ? If I have a door in ADT take
>the
>> >model into VIZ, I should be able to click on the door (or window) in VIZ
>> >and, lo! it's a door object in VIZ, too! Not just a bunch of pretty
>> faces.
>>
>> I'm not fully clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying that it
>> should be a door? And it's not? It is when I do it. Can you describe the
>> process you're using to bring the geometry into VIZ?
>>
>> Or are you saying that it shouldn't be? (And if so, why the heck not?)
>
>If I insert a door in ADT3, and then import the model into VIZ (using
>linking), and then I click on the door in viz, it is NOT a door object in
>VIZ. It may be called a door, it may be on the door layer but it is not a
>VIZ door. I cannot open or close the door as I would a VIZ created door
>(you know, click on the animate button, slide it to 100, change the amount
>the door is open, and LO, the door is animated). It should be a door
>object. Same goes for windows and for stairs and for railings. If the are
>AEC objects in ONE program, they should be the same TYPE of object in the
>other. A door in ADT3 as "intelligent" properties. This SAME door should
>the have "intelligent" properties of a door in VIZ. Now, maybe I'm doing
>something wrong, but if I take a door from the standard ADT3 library,
insert
>in a wall in ADT3 and then link the file into VIZ, the ADT3 door is NOT a
>door in VIZ, but a "block" with multi-material ID assigned in the whole
>multi-material mess.
>
>>
>> >...that when you built a roof slab that the fascia and the soffit and
the
>> >roof would all actually be DIFFERENT objects so that when you brought
>them
>> >into VIZ you could assign materials to them....
>>
>> The roof and the fascia and the soffit are all part of a single slab
>object
>> in ADT, and like the doors above, will come in as a single object in VIZ.
>> You can control material assignments (as with every other object type
from
>> ADT) using the model display rep colors combined with multi-sub-object
>> materials in VIZ.
>>
>Yep. That is exactly the problem. The multi-sub-object material thing is
a
>mess. It seems like a hack to me. I would like to have the option to
apply
>material by whatever I would like to apply the material by (layer, color,
>layer then color, whatever). I guess the real hang up I have is that I
>don't think of the roof as the roof and the fascia and the soffit and the
>gutter and the...and the...I think of them as SEPARATE objects. I'm used
to
>using a different program to model with, then importing the DXF into VIZ.
>After using the "automatic" process a few times, I still say the old way of
>doing it is faster and more reliable, that is, the results are always what
I
>expect with the old way. The new file linking way doesn't always behave as
>expected, or desired.
>
>> >...ADT3 would finally have a way of displaying and SIMPLY controling
face
>> >normals for objects and that any objects created or supplied would have
>> >CORRECT normals.
>>
>> This sounds very bizarre, indeed. One of the benefits of ADT, in
>particular,
>> is that when PROPERLY done, imported geometry has very consistent face
>> normals, and they all face outward, as they should.
>
>Check the standard ADT window frames. I think you'll find that they don't
>always come in with all of the normals correct. I've also seens several
>posts on the 3dstudio-viz.filelinking NG. And PROPERLY done is the key. I
>don't all of it is.
>
>> >...A feature would work as advertised or it isn't included. Period.
The
>> >end. It's bug free. The feature works as expected and as advertised.
>If
>> >it doesn't, it doesn't exist. We pay way to much for this to be beta
>> >testers.
>>
>> Something is very fishy here. Everything you describe is contrary to ADT
/
>> VIZ behavior. Can you provide more details as to the exact procedure you
>are
>> using to bring your geometry into VIZ? In particular, are you using File
>> Linking? And if so, what settings are you using?
>
>I'm not going to specify every problem, as they are quite well documented
in
>the many NG's. But the overall idea here is that the connection between
VIZ
>and ADT3 is surface level. It really doesn't work the way I expected it to
>after reading the marketing material. My fault for believing in the hype.
>

[Anonymous]

Is there some way then of assigning different colors to different parts of
a slab? Obviously you don't want the underside of a roof with a shingle
texture. I use Accurender not Viz, but it works in the same way.

This is very frustrating to work around, and I find myself going back to
Facade to create roofs and floors. Facade creates it's slabs with the top,
bottom and edges on different layers, so you at least have some flexibility
in assigning materials. Maybe I'm missing something. Ideally, I'd like to
see slab objects more like a horizontal wall, with components.

Don Hiley

> I personally find Multi-Sub-Object materials far from a hack. With a
> methodical and logical approach, I can quickly and easily assign materials
> to all of my walls with one selection, and likewise doors, windows and
> everything else.
>

[Anonymous]

What I am saying is that a window in the AEC library should have been built
so that the normals are always correct. Having to unify normals isn't
always the best option. I have had several situations where I what some
normals facing one way, and the other another. Unifying the normals only
lead to problems. Ok...so then I only import parts at a time and unify the
normals for the windows and doors? That's a work around, medicine for the
symptom, not a cure. The cure is properly drawing objects to begin with.
There is no reason why the window, or any other object for that matter,
should have mixed normals.

I am also saying that if you call an object an AEC object, and that the AEC
object has "intelligence" it should be "intelligent" enough to know which
program it is in and which properties it should exhibit. It knows if it's
2D or 3D doesn't it? Why can't it know if it's in VIZ or not?

Lastly, the multi-material method for "automatically" applying materials
isn't flexible enough. Sometimes, I would like to automatically apply a
material by layer, not color. Sometimes I would like to automatically apply
a material by color, not layer. And, most of the time I would like to be
able to apply a different library to a different project. Right now, the
only way to make it happen is to rename the default library, use the ACI
material. Change it. Use it for a project, then when the next project
comes along, do it all over again, and forget being able to easily work with
more than one project at once. Then what happens if you have Bob working on
Building A and he's modified the ACI library, and Fred working on Building B
and he's changed his library and we know XREF them in to Site C with a still
different library. Remember, the ACI material is the same name for each
project. You can see the mess. The "automatic" material application should
be material library based, with the ability to give the project a path to
it's library.

My past experience with different programs and methods has taught me that
"automatic" everything isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Having done a
fair amount of visualization work in my life, it is clear to me that no one
program excels at everything. AutoCAD, in my mind, is pretty good for 2D
work, but very painful for 3D work (if anyone has ever used HOK's draw or
drawVision, or the old SOM program, I forget what it was called you'll know
what I mean). I am used to being able to build and control every polygon.
I can keep my poly counts low, I can ALWAYS render single sided, which keeps
my animation times manageable. But, I have to build every polygon.

Finally, if you think FileLinking works perfectly, just check out the file
liking NG. You'll find plenty of people with problems. True, some may be
due to lack of training, but you'll also find that it doesn't quite work as
advertised.

Paul Hirst

[Anonymous]

Don,

You can use a Top/Bottom material to do what you describe. It does exactly
what it implies - one material for the top, another for the bottom.

It can also be a part of a Multi-Sub-Object material.

--
***************************************************************
Please do not email me privately with technical issues
***************************************************************
Matt Dillon
Assistant Moderator - Autodesk Discussion Forums

The D.C. CADD Company, Inc.
http://www.dccadd.com
Don Hiley wrote in message ...
>Is there some way then of assigning different colors to different parts of
>a slab? Obviously you don't want the underside of a roof with a shingle
>texture. I use Accurender not Viz, but it works in the same way.
>
>This is very frustrating to work around, and I find myself going back to
>Facade to create roofs and floors. Facade creates it's slabs with the top,
>bottom and edges on different layers, so you at least have some flexibility
>in assigning materials. Maybe I'm missing something. Ideally, I'd like to
>see slab objects more like a horizontal wall, with components.
>
>Don Hiley
>
>> I personally find Multi-Sub-Object materials far from a hack. With a
>> methodical and logical approach, I can quickly and easily assign
materials
>> to all of my walls with one selection, and likewise doors, windows and
>> everything else.
>>
>

[Anonymous]

I went and looked...

It really doesn't look as bad as you indicate. There are a few questions,
most of them have been answered with a straightforward solution. Most of the
real filelinking issues that I saw had to do with NON-ADT objects.

I myself have not experienced any face normal problems with ADT and VIZ. Be
it ADT 1 and VIZ 2, ADT 2 and VIZ 2, ADT 2 and VIZ 3 or ADT 3 and VIZ 3.

As far as AEC objects needing to be treated identically in VIZ as they are
in ADT, while I agree that it would be nice to animate a door, the rest
doesn't make sense, if you think about it a bit. ADT is a CAD program. VIZ
is not. Following that logic, you would also expect a dimension to be a
dimension in VIZ, and a hatch pattern to be a hatch pattern in VIZ. Pretty
soon you'd be doing drafting in VIZ? VIZ and ADT are two completely
different products with two completely different purposes. They CAN share
data and understand those components of each other's database that make
sense for their purpose.

--
***************************************************************
Please do not email me privately with technical issues
***************************************************************
Matt Dillon
Assistant Moderator - Autodesk Discussion Forums

The D.C. CADD Company, Inc.
http://www.dccadd.com
3D Peruna wrote in message ...
>What I am saying is that a window in the AEC library should have been built
>so that the normals are always correct. Having to unify normals isn't
>always the best option. I have had several situations where I what some
>normals facing one way, and the other another. Unifying the normals only
>lead to problems. Ok...so then I only import parts at a time and unify the
>normals for the windows and doors? That's a work around, medicine for the
>symptom, not a cure. The cure is properly drawing objects to begin with.
>There is no reason why the window, or any other object for that matter,
>should have mixed normals.
>
>I am also saying that if you call an object an AEC object, and that the AEC
>object has "intelligence" it should be "intelligent" enough to know which
>program it is in and which properties it should exhibit. It knows if it's
>2D or 3D doesn't it? Why can't it know if it's in VIZ or not?
>
>Lastly, the multi-material method for "automatically" applying materials
>isn't flexible enough. Sometimes, I would like to automatically apply a
>material by layer, not color. Sometimes I would like to automatically
apply
>a material by color, not layer. And, most of the time I would like to be
>able to apply a different library to a different project. Right now, the
>only way to make it happen is to rename the default library, use the ACI
>material. Change it. Use it for a project, then when the next project
>comes along, do it all over again, and forget being able to easily work
with
>more than one project at once. Then what happens if you have Bob working
on
>Building A and he's modified the ACI library, and Fred working on Building
B
>and he's changed his library and we know XREF them in to Site C with a
still
>different library. Remember, the ACI material is the same name for each
>project. You can see the mess. The "automatic" material application
should
>be material library based, with the ability to give the project a path to
>it's library.
>
>My past experience with different programs and methods has taught me that
>"automatic" everything isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Having done a
>fair amount of visualization work in my life, it is clear to me that no one
>program excels at everything. AutoCAD, in my mind, is pretty good for 2D
>work, but very painful for 3D work (if anyone has ever used HOK's draw or
>drawVision, or the old SOM program, I forget what it was called you'll know
>what I mean). I am used to being able to build and control every polygon.
>I can keep my poly counts low, I can ALWAYS render single sided, which
keeps
>my animation times manageable. But, I have to build every polygon.
>
>Finally, if you think FileLinking works perfectly, just check out the file
>liking NG. You'll find plenty of people with problems. True, some may be
>due to lack of training, but you'll also find that it doesn't quite work as
>advertised.
>
>Paul Hirst
>

[Anonymous]

ADT elements linked into VIZ automatically have their own Multi-Sub
Materials.

To get the material:
Select your Window, Door, etc.
Open Material Editor and Select Get Material.
In the Material/Map Browser change "Browse From" to "Selected."
Drag the material into the Material Editor.

The problem is that there are 255 Materials in this Multi-Sub Object
Material, and I haven't done enough experimenting with it to figure out
which sub-material goes to what.

Of course if it's just a simple wall or slab, the Top/Bottom Material might
be the best one to use.

[Anonymous]

And that's why I don't bother with it. I usually assign my OWN MSO materials
to objects individually. For me, it gives me more control and it's not so
much to think about at one time. (Makes my head hurt).

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Please do not email me privately with technical issues
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

Matt Dillon
Assistant Moderator: Autodesk Discussion Forums

http://www.dccadd.com

"Alex Schamenek" wrote in message
news:0987482563CE10A7F8616DEE7C46C8B2@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> ADT elements linked into VIZ automatically have their own Multi-Sub
> Materials.
>

> The problem is that there are 255 Materials in this Multi-Sub Object
> Material, and I haven't done enough experimenting with it to figure out
> which sub-material goes to what.