General question about Mac OS X support in connection with 3ds max 2017

[georg.slavka]

Dear Support-Team,

Referring to the text written on http://www.autodesk.com/solutions/mac-compatible-software "...In addition, we provide full support for a number of products when used on the Mac in virtualized environments including Parallels Desktop and VMware Fusion..." I ask myself how this support can be interpreted in detail.

I run 3ds max 2017 on Windows 10 Pro, on a brand new Macbook Pro 2016 and Parallels Desktop 12. A huge number of people is very angry about Parallels Desktop 12 since it still only provides DirectX 10 support. Therefore the only working 3ds max graphics driver seems to be Legacy OpenGL. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this does not seem to utilize the full GPU-power of the build in graphics card (AMD Radeon 455 2GB). Referring to the text above, shouldn't there be any attempts to solve this problem, also on your side? In my opinion Autodesk should work very close together with Parallels Desktop to provide a solution, that allows full GPU power. Should this be the case already, would you please provide updated information on this issue?

Best regards,

Georg

[Jon_A_Bell]

Hi Georg,

I wanted to note that, since the release of Windows 10, we've have several users report serious issues with trying to run 3ds Max under Windows 10 using Boot Camp.

One of the problems we've seen is that Apple's default AMD video drivers that get installed when setting up Boot Camp have been, in some cases, more than 18 months out of date. Users have to download and manually install updated Windows 10 drivers for running under Boot Camp, which Apple will then not support. Even if you get the drivers working properly, we're still seeing issues with those drivers, Apple's AMD/Nvidia GPUs, and 3ds Max's implementation of Direct3D 11 running on the Mac. The issue isn't specifically 3ds Max; it's a combination of Max, Windows 10 and Apple's reluctance to update their Boot Camp installs.

I've brought this issue to the attention of Autodesk upper management and have suggested we re-visit our formal note of support for this approach (for 3ds Max) until we get better feedback from both Microsoft and Apple.

Best regards,

Jon A. Bell

Autodesk Technical Support

[georg.slavka]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your reply and all the details concerning this issue.

Besides all the problems with Boot Camp, what about Parallels? Can't these issues maybe be solved a little easier and quicker there? I used to run 3ds max (2016 and earlier versions) on a Mid2010 Macbook Pro for several years (Windows 7 + Boot Camp combo). My old MBP was a Dual Core with 8 Gigs of RAM. Now that I've upgraded to the latest MBP (Quad Core, 16 Gigs of RAM), it would be for the first time possible and more comfortable to run 3ds max via Parallels. I've bought a Windows 10 Pro licence already, but this does not really matter a lot. Which Windows version would you currently recommend for 3ds max 2017 on the latest MBP?

Thank you,

Best,

Georg

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

I just wanted to post that I have seen quite a few problems with Parallels as well, but these are typically limited to viewport weirdness, some of the explorer windows, and some features not working properly or at all in backburner.  If there is a free demo by all means try it, but it does seem that the newer Macbooks with W10 are having some issues for some users. 

Best Regards,

[georg.slavka]

Well, after all, software should be adapted to (new) hardware, so I hope there are people working on all the issues with new MBPs and W10.

System requirements for 3ds max 2017:

Microsoft® Windows® 7 (SP1), Windows 8, Windows 8.1, and Windows 10 Professional operating system

Autodesk provides many native Mac products for 3D modeling, rendering, animation, visual effects, and digital imagery. In addition, we provide full support for a number of products when used on the Mac in virtualized environments including Parallels Desktop and VMware Fusion. We also support these products via Boot Camp, part of Mac OS X that lets you install and run Windows (and Windows-based applications) on a Mac.

I can't see any support concerning Parallels Desktop at the time. Is there any real cooperation between Autodesk and Parallels going on? If so, when will it approximately be possible to get adapted display drivers via update, that provide higher viewport performance and no viewport weirdness when running 3ds max 2017?

Best,

Georg

[jon.bell]

Hi Georg,

I'm taking up this issue with 3ds Max development and product management, because the issues that we're seeing with folks running Max under Windows 10 on Macs (in any form) are increasingly difficult to solve to customers' satisfaction.

Again, this isn't just an issue of Autodesk talking to the people who make Parallels; it's that the combination of 3ds Max, Windows 10, D3D 11, and Apple's GPUs and insistence on installing old graphics drivers under Boot Camp are making this situation very difficult for us. What used to work reliably under Windows XP or Windows 7 on the Mac just isn't cutting it today with Windows 10 and graphics-intensive programs. Regardless, we're trying to find out acceptable solutions here.

Thanks for your patience,

Jon A. Bell

Autodesk Technical Support

[georg.slavka]

Hi Jon,

The insistence on installing old graphics Drivers seems to be a BootCamp issue though. This is why I thought that it might be quicker to solve everything via Parallels. When running Windows on Parallels you can only choose "Parallels Display Driver" in the Windows Control Panel. So it is Parallels that has to port all the GPU stuff through this driver. As a next step 3ds max should have an option for Mac/Parallels-users to choose this display driver to make everything function properly(?) - doesn't sound like an easy task either I have to admit...

Anyway, if Autodesk had developed a native OS X 3ds max version, we wouldn't have these issues now. Instead the company bought Maya back in 2005 and doesn't care a lot about 3ds max on the Mac   😕

Best,

Georg

[georg.slavka]

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Apple-Bo...

...so this is it? The final answer to all the issues? Do I now have to buy a Windows notebook to run 3ds max, although my Macbook Pro beats them all in terms of graphics/display-quality? How about some native Mac support instead? It works with Maya, why not 3ds max? I paid more than 10.000 EUR for the license and subscription fees over the last decade. Don't all similar users deserve a better solution?

[jon.bell]

Hi Georg,

It's definitely possible for Macintosh owners to run 3ds Max under Boot Camp (I used to, years ago, on a MacBook Pro), or possibly under Parallels or VMWare.

However, I wrote that specific article you referenced ("we no longer officially support these") because 3ds Max is not "officially" certified to work under these, and from a tech support standpoint it's very difficult to troubleshoot these issues for Mac users. The combination of 5K Mac monitors, Boot Camp code and/or virtualization, Apple's recommended (but outdated) GPU drivers and insistence on people using Windows 10 (which has had a worrisome number of issues for PC users themselves), makes this a very fragile environment for 3ds Max to run on.

We're not saying that you can't run 3ds Max on the Macintosh; if you can get Max to work successfully for you under the above conditions, we'd love to hear how you did it.

Finally, although Maya has native MacOS and Linux versions available, 3ds Max was written from the beginning to take advantage of Windows (NT, back in 1996). Porting it or rewriting it for MacOS would be a gargantuan undertaking at this point, and our resources would be much better spent making Max work better under Windows, and helping Microsoft make Windows 10 work better with all of our software as well.

Best regards,

[georg.slavka]

Meanwhile I have given up Parallels Desktop completely - 3ds max 2018 crashed almost every single time when I tried to save a scene. Also using the only working display driver (Legacy OpenGL) made the viewport incredibly slow on heavy scenes. 

This is why I installed Windows 10 64bit on boot camp today. Checked the AMD Radeon Driver right afterwards - Direct3D Version 9.14.10.01221 (see screenshot). After installing 3ds max 2018 I went into the Preferences - Viewports/Display Drivers tab immediately to have a look why 3ds max opened up right away without any issues. And now this is where my confusion starts...  it says Nitrous (Direct3D 11.0 Feature Level 11 - AMD Radeon Pro 455) - how's that possible? 

I must admit that I have very little clue about DirectX / Direct3D and which version is available on a Macbook Pro / Windows 10 boot camp setup. Can someone please explain this to me? Anyway, the viewport looks great so far, and runs very smoothly - at least this is what I can tell after opening a few of my current projects. 

Last question: has anyone tried to use an eGPU unit on the late 2016 Macbook Pro (with touchbar), e.g. Akitio Node with a GeForce 1080 or similar, on Windows 10, boot camp, to run 3ds max 2018 on it?

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @georg.slavka,

The experience you had with Parallels and 2018/W10 match other reports I've hard.  (Still an amazing software though, Parallels.)  I'm not sure I understand why the confusion about the identified card, how is what possible?  Thanks for the info!

DirectX gets updated with Windows anymore I believe, I don't think it's a separate download as it used to be.  I may be wrong about that.  But from the Windows perspective when running in Bootcamp, it doesn't care about your Mac hardware, just the GPU which is being reported through windows and not through OSX.  So the directx settings should be fine by default, as I understand it.  Is that what you were asking about?  Thanks for any clarification if I misunderstood you.

Best Regards,

[georg.slavka]

My confusion was the mismatch between the Direct3D versions. The Nitrous Direct3D driver requires version 11. I always thought that you can’t get any higher Direct3D version than 9 on a Mac, no matter if you run Windows 10 on Parallels or on Boot Camp. While it really shows ver. 9 in my Radeon Pro preferences, 3ds max shows me that it‘s using D3D 11.

Anyway, it still runs without any issues, so this is the way to go if you‘re looking for a reliable Macbook Pro 2016 / Windows 10 / 3ds max 2018 combo.

Best regards

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

That is very interesting information @georg.slavka.  I wonder if that is the reason people have been experiencing so much instability on Macs in recent years.  It may be trying to activate features of DX11 that don't exist on that hardware and crashing because that is the current Nitrous Driver.  

There is D3D11 *and* D3D9 for Nitrous.  If what you say is true, I would highly recommend setting your display driver in Max to DX9 nitrous.  Thanks again for the info, I was not aware of that and it may help in the future.

Best Regards,

[georg.slavka]

This indeed might be the reason for most issues. What about going a step futher with this idea / knowledge... I'm thinking of a new 3ds max display driver that utilizes the Mac specific Metal display driver (sort of the Mac OS X DirectX equivalent). Parallels Desktop would have to be part of the game though to make this work. Once all hardware features of the build in graphics cards could be utilized through OS X / Metal and on through Parallels, 3ds max could maybe make use of this for great viewport performace or even GPU rendering(?) - just an idea, maybe way of reality...

Best regards,

Georg

[Alfred.DeFlaminis]

Hello @georg.slavka,

My best suggestion is to put in a Feature Request, but I think given the Max codebase is based on Windows only that it might not be super feasible.  Thanks again regardless!

Best Regards,