The design proposal to adaptive Zoom/Pan of the viewport navigation system.

[macrod]

Many users voted this Small Annoying Thing:

http://3dsmaxfeedback.autodesk.com/forums/76763-small-annoying-things/suggestions/1534691-zooming-in...

So, Max 2015 comes with an adaptive solution in which you can sample the geometry under your mouse to determine the navigation speed, so you never "stick somewhere and can hardly zoom/pan" unless doing a Zoom Extent.

I know this makes some of you very angry, but you don't need to be like that because it is software, for which patches can always be made after release.

Some of you want a Preference entry to switch between the old and new navigation systems. This might be your immediate idea after you get angry, but won't resolve anything, because:

- You get 2 worlds but neither makes you happy.

- You cannot switch between the 2 quickly.

My original design proposal which was not implemented in 2015 release (Autodesk is not my own company, please understand):

- Orbit behavior should not be included in this SAT, and can be easily revert to the old one.

- Only do adaptive sampling when a modifier key (possibly Ctrl + Alt + Zoom/Pan tool active + left mouse down) is enabled, this determines your future navigation speed, later, you can pan/zoom (without using the modifier key) anywhere in the view, the speed stays what you sampled/told Max to take.

- If you never did a sampling, the behavior is like Max 2014 and earlier.

- Zoom Extent to reset the speed. Everyone knows this legacy trick, so even if you don't know the feature and accidentally did a sampling and feel the speed is bad, you can reset the speed easily like what you did for Max 2014 and earlier.
- Sampling on the home grid (treated as geometry) is possible but there is a speed limitation.
- The sampled speed with the modifier key can also be used for navigating Wireframe/Bounding Box views. The sampling itself should not be enabled in Wireframe/Bounding Box views.

An example would be: You have a huge city scene and you look at the top of a skyscraper, you Ctrl + Alt + Zoom/Pan tool + click to sample on the geometry of the skyscraper top, then even if the skyscraper is out of view, you still pan/zoom at the speed you sampled (so you are at acceptable speed for neighboring buildings), until you feel the speed is not good for some zooming factors (you get too close to some geometry, or you want to quickly zoom to faraway buildings), you can either use the modifier key again or use your favorite legacy Zoom Extent trick.

This is the best solution I can imagine which also preserves existing user convention. Let me know your opinion, but please don't be destructive, I'm wise enough and I shout out loud against those features you (and I) hate at first sight, and in this thread let's focus on this feature only, many thanks!

[Anonymous]

There`s not much i can contribute here. I read you suggestions and i think it`s a good way to combine the new and old behavior.

I think it´s really hard to give any feedback until we used it.

It would be nice to have an (optional) indication that you sampled. Maybe next to the viewport-label.<Sampled> and/or <Reset>, something like that.

Modifier-key should be customizeable.

Other than that i would say 'go for it'. 

And thanks for working with us for a solution. That`s much appreciated.

[macrod]

Hi aon.914858227,

Thanks for your suggestions for indication for sampling and customizable modifier key, however, these could be even bigger for an SP.

There are not many easily accessible keys on the keyboard left for us to use. My idea comes from:

http://help.autodesk.com/cloudhelp/2015/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-CCD2C70B-52B4-4BF0-A5C0-74ECC591ACDD.h...

"To increase zoom speed: Hold down Ctrl..." "To decrease zoom speed: Hold down Alt..." [Modifier keys (not shortcut keys) are not always customizable.]

Then, it would be natural for me to use Ctrl + Alt for sampling for speed.

Everyone,

The modifier key solution should be the same as the legacy behavior except:

When you "stick somewhere and can hardly zoom/pan", in the past the only thing you can do is Zoom Extent, with the new solution you will also be able to sample geometries to take a precise new speed for zoom/pan.

This is a general problem for any 3D systems, so, 3ds Max could be among the first software whose this feature gets complained a lot and who resolve it properly.

[Anonymous]

"Some of you want a Preference entry to switch between the old and new navigation systems. This might be your immediate idea after you get angry, but won't resolve anything, because:
- You get 2 worlds but neither makes you happy.
- You cannot switch between the 2 quickly."

What do you mean cannot switch quickly? It hasn't even been put to the test yet, how do you know?

"You get 2 worlds but neither makes you happy."

We were perfectly happy. I'd love to talk to some pple in here who disagree with me on the old navigational behavior.

"Autodesk is not my own company, please understand"
- Macrod - could you please just clarify what your role is in this... are you within the autodesk company or a person who is trying to push his way of navigating into the package by getting votes?

There's a difference between being destructive and constructive.. You're taking it the wrong way. Pple are allowed to question your suggestion. If being destructive is also "supported dissagreeing with the way you see it because ... and ..." then you're taking it the wrong way.

"Some of you want a Preference entry to switch between the old and new navigation systems. This might be your immediate idea after you get angry, but won't resolve anything," - Lets be clear about this: Max 2015 is crippled for (most) of us working in large scenes. - We could do our jobs just fine in previous releases. It's NOT JUST ABOUT autodeks implementing a new system that leaves us crippled, it's ALSO about NOT GRADUALY letting us get into the other system by for example letting us chose in the beginning which way we want to go.

Imagine they do this with other features, just cancel something and expect us to "be into" it from day one. Let alone if the new feature is simply broken.

I really don't want to hijack your thread here. You have a suggestion, and I'd like to see a good outcome for everyone - more then that, i'd like to see more voices and opinions in here then the 4 pple who've been raging and arguing about this for the past few weeks...

Regards

[macrod]

"What do you mean cannot switch quickly?"

Dear, this needs to be explained? Changing a preference entry means: click Customize > Preferences > go your tab > change the entry > OK, 5 clicks...

"We were perfectly happy."

I don't see. If all of you are happy with the legacy world, there won't be the high-vote SAT. Did you even read my post and see the SAT page?

I'm within the company, my suggestion didn't get implemented in the 2015 release (so you started the area thread), and now I need to push this to the correct direction.

Based on all my discussions with you, you gave me an impression that you don't read others' post carefully, don't try to understand some basic computer terminologies (such as modifier key), then just throw out distracting complains simply because you want to complain...

So, please DO read carefully and try to understand. Sending too many repetitive words just dilutes the topic. Member "aon.914858227" understands things perfectly.

[Anonymous]

No i read the SAT page and I understood there was a need to change the navigational system. I read it, I saw it. Now I see you shot yourself in the foot by asking for it.

Don't pull the previous thread into this one or attack me on a personal level cause I didn't understand your previous post in the other thread. Your explanation was difficult to understand. I'm not English, and you're not either I assume seeing the grammar. But you don't see me complaining on your writing skills.

"Plz understand me". All i've been doing is trying to. And getting more pple to join the thread. Wheres the 160votes-pple on that features page in this discussion?

I read your first explanation 5 times before. Untill I thought I understood. What the hell do I care if i'm supposedly unable to understand the first time. I'm trying. Don't mind saying sorry or admitting I was wrong.

Just don't say I'm not trying or dismissing your view as junk, cause i'm trying to get max 2015 workable, just like you are.

You have a different view on things, clearly. You want to move on changing the navigation, I simply want the old one back seeing how they broke what they thought was something new.

Nothing wrong with that. I can read, no worries -_-

[macrod]

Hi drendir, I don't want to explain too much to dilute the topic and force others to read more words, so that's it, thanks.

Hi others, the most important information I want to convey is in bold in the first 3 posts, if those posts become not editable I'll post new ones in bold, thanks.

[Anonymous]

They tried it, we tested it, it was a very bad idea (like caddies) and now it should go away. Simple as that.

There are other, way more precise and efficient solutions to handle the speed problem. What they implemented is simply very bad solution to given problem. It's not only solution out there. Other softwares are living proof of that.

Requiring another level of user input to aid something as simple and elementary as viewport navigation, like you suggest, is a nonsense. That way, we could have 20 hotkey combinations just to properly orbit viewport in a few years, each of them working properly only in very specific scenario.

[StephenMF]

I would say revert it!
Or make a toggle, like what we got for caddies.

One piece of software that got 3d navigation right is Unity3D where when you hold down right MB you fly through the scene, First Person Shooter style with WSAD keys. Give it a try.

(Not using 2015 because of navigation bug).

Stephen

[macrod]

I don't think you really understand the problem in the SAT.

If you saw this lines:

"The modifier key solution should be the same as the legacy behavior except:

When you "stick somewhere and can hardly zoom/pan", in the past the only thing you can do is Zoom Extent, with the new solution you will also be able to sample geometries to take a precise new speed for zoom/pan."

You should know the proposal means "basically the same as legacy", but in addition, it lets you do what you need when you encouter the legacy problems.

This is not about navigation styles (e.g., WASD), this is about speed.

[macrod]

Your responces make me believe Steve Jobs was right:

"A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."

"Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition."

[macrod]

Changing the "left mouse down" to "left/middle mouse click without moving cursor", so it does not interfere with Ctrl + Alt + MMB move to zoom.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but all of your solutions you named so far intefere with some of the standing 3ds Max hotkey combinations. This is really not a way to go.

I also agree with you that people often have no idea what they want unless they experience something better. Vray render settings UI growing into huge frustrating to use junkyard of buttons and spinners is a proof of what happens if you do not control user feedback and just slap it in the software. But having to manually press some hotkeys to correct a **** BUG in navigation mechanism is really not a solution. 

As i said earlier, there are many more clever solution to this all of which do no require ANY user input. No silly hotkeys.

What Autodesk implemented is simply the worst solution to the problem, and there is no point of trying to save it. It shoul be just reverted to the point it was before, until some actually usable solution is found.

Most of my friends who are truly professional 3ds Max high-end users refuse to use Max 2015 due to this BS. Interestingly enough, many of my friends who are hobbyists or just mediocre users and work only with very basic scenes did not even notice this bug. That may explain how it could have gotten through beta testing phase.

[Anonymous]

"Interestingly enough, many of my friends who are hobbyists or just mediocre users and work only with very basic scenes did not even notice this bug"

I had the same issue - I laughed when they told me "what navigation issue?" O_°

- I have someone higher up the chain perhaps asking into the problem btw, Joep from the Dutch EUE event organisation is going to ask about this at the development pple. See what's up with that... Hopefuly he can get a direct awnser from them.

So far i haven't even gotten a recognision of the problem being accepted. (Not even the admin on that feature request page awnsered in the end - mouse quiet - was dissapointing.. wanted some recognision as in "oh yes, indeed, lets tackle this" - but no.

[dgorsman]

From a development perspective, rolling back to how something was previously implemented isn't always a possibility.  For example, a UI may have been using features and methods which were originated and supported under Win XP but are no longer supported under newer versions.  That means the UI must be redesigned in order for the program to run.  There is simply no means of going back.

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry but do you have any idea about the context of this thread? Do you know what is talked about here?

This is not UI related thing. This is a modification to a mechanism, that is absolutely independent of user interface or operating system. 

And of course, unless developers are completely incompetent, this change should be easily reverseable. 

The logics you applied here would mean many of the bugs would become simply unfixable. Including all the dealbreaker ones.

And if there, for any incredible reason, was not a way to revert this behavior, then it would still be possible to simply replace the entire mechanism with working one.

Again, to clarify, new focal point sampling introduced in 3ds Max 2015 is a BUG, not a FEATURE.

[macrod]

drendir, rawalanche:

To test whether you carefully read and fully understand the problem in the SAT and the proposal I made, I'll have to invite you to iterate the problem and my proposal in your own words (instead of copy the original text).

The Orbit center issue is already gone on our internal builds (as I said in my first post, if you read carefully).

The other issue is the sampling happens every time you click, which is just what this proposal tries to resolve. The idea is to do sampling only when modifier keys are used, otherwise everything will be like Max 2014. There're not many keys left to use but I find Ctrl increases the speed and Alt decreases the speed so Ctrl + Alt is a logical choice for sampling for the speed. If this key combination is not the best, I already said "possibly Ctrl + Alt" which means I was asking for users' opinions. I also guarantee otherwise everything will be like Max 2014, except this general 3D system navigation speed issue is resolved as accurately as possible.

If you need to complain, there should be a concrete point. The only point/change is described in the previous paragraph, you didn't focus on the key point and threw out many general complaints, and you didn't make any implementable proposal to the problem, which is why Steve Jobs was right.

[Anonymous]

I do not know how to explain it anymore. Implementable proposal is simple. Just add toggle to preferences. Those, who do not find it getting in their way of work, will have it enabled by default, and those, who can not use 3ds Max due to it, can simply disable it. It's both easiest to implement and safest solution out there.

[macrod]

Well, you didn't show your comprehension to my proposal. However, I'm happy that you came back with a mild and short reply.

To reply your words:

"Those, who do not find it getting in their way of work, will have it enabled by default, and those, who can not use 3ds Max due to it, can simply disable it."

If you read my proposal carefully, you should be able to figure out, with my proposal:

Those, who need to get an accurate navigation speed (when the speed is no longer suitable for vastly different zooming factors) based on current geometry, can make it conveniently by holding Ctrl + Alt and simply clicking (only enabled when Zoom/Pan tool is active), without having to Zoom Extent (you won't want to zoom extent for large objects).

Those, who..., well, everyone can still use 3ds Max as in legacy versions without finding anything getting in their way, by simply not touching Ctrl + Alt. Then it already works smoothly for everyone, still adding it into Preferences will make you think we are silly.

Exactly 1 year ago (6/8/2013), I did some research in game engines and other 3D applications:

- Unreal gives you 4 choices as menu items:

Slowest Camera Speed

Normal Camera Speed

Fast Camera Speed

Very Fast Camera Speed

- Cry gives you a Speed spinner (you have to guess a number here, but we sample the geometry accurately) + 3 buttons (.1, 1, 10) for preset speeds.

- Other 3D applications basically don't let you change the navigation speed, you can only select something and do a "Frame on Selection".

We won't make it the game engine way, because:

- 3D DCC software needs to navigate objects often, while game engines for the most part navigate game levels.

- Putting it on UI just forces you clicking more times.

- I want the change affect you convention minimally.

This modifier key proposal actually was also first initiated by me 1 year ago (6/9/2013).

[macrod]

I suggested "in this thread let's focus on this feature only" and I don't want to dilute the topic, however...

I think your mind is affected by the Caddy toggle added to Preferences.

I myself feel great to use the legacy standard windows (text labels are directly visible, standard Max spinners, windows can be moved anywhere on the screen) for Editable Poly tools, and even happy to see it reverted without adding a Preference entry.