Complex Animation Sequence Workflows?

[Anonymous]

Hi, I'm doing technical animation video productions that are put together from lets say 30> separate animation sequences to be rendered, to illustrate our tools as they are deployed in the field. 

I have pipes, valves, tools, cutaway sections, fluids changing in each sequence. Each has some objects from the previous sequence, but things are added and taken away, so there is a lot of commonality, and a lot of change as i move to the next sequence and construct the animation and setup and render each sequence as i go along. 

I'e been using Max since it was around version3.5, so i'm well versed in most all aspects of it. 

I dont want a separate file per camara sequence, as i have too many parts to manage if i have to change something.

I have yet to find any simple way to organise and mangae this. 

Layers dont work well, as there are many parts that would need to be on multiple layers, and cloning one layer to the next so each sequence has all its own objects creates a massive file over the duration of a project. 

Scene States are nice in principle, as i can have them setup to change the render setup and animation bar, but in Max 2014 there proving impossible to manage, as they cant handle [or its buggy] layer visibility or changes to layers reliably, so i go back to a state, and everything is not as it should be, wastes hours. 

Really what i want is 1 file, with a way to save a state [30+ states [1 per anim sequence]], that i can go back to at any time just the way i left it.

Its very hard to go back to scene 05 for instance after a few weeks, and remember exactly what layers to turn ON/OFF, and make changes, and re-render it. 

So im considering for the next project simply having an "animation area", and a "storage area" in the same scene. I will simply for each animation sequence, animate [move objects] from stotage, into the animation area, animate them, and move them back out, and move in the next sequences parts next, using the timeline to control things. 

This means i would just jump to a timeline say 20-30 seconds, and what i would need would be there.

Obviously this will need a lot of moving and aligning setup prep before hand.

Does anyone know a better way to manage a large amount of animation sequences in one file, that have common parts across many sequences, and that Layers, and Scene States have proved inadequate for? I generally have maybe 30+ separate camera renders of 10 seconds each with common and unique objects in them. 

I've been trying to figure the best way to do this for a long time now, but have never found a good solution to it. Does anyone have any better ideas?

Cheers, Steve

PS: I guess what i want is a new kind of layer system where objects can be on more than one layer coupled with some of the features of scene states like render setups and cameras. 

That would be more workable than layers or states. MAX has always been terrible at things like this.

[paulneale]

Scene states should be the tool for this sort of thing but it looks like it is failing you. 

Have you tried just using Selection Sets?

[donied]

have you tried xrefs

[Anonymous]

Hi, thanks for the replies, 

I think Scene states should be the tool to use as well, but its sooo buggy in max 2014 [sp3/sp5] not saving the correct layers and having the wrong layers and objects visible every time i switch to another state that its nearly not fit for purpose [i know you have to record things].

I have to remember whats supposed to be on each state as i have to find all the parts for each state when i switch to it every time. Max 2014 Service pack 5 has not helped either, but at least i can see textures again in the viewport!.

Im hoping that this feature will be usable in Max 2015 when i get it installed before my next project. 

Selection sets is too clunky and xrefs would make it more complicated to use.

All i really want is a simple system based around animation sequences instead of layers, so objects can be on more than one sequence [layer] at a time. 

I hope that the new layers system and the hopefully fixed issues with Scene States in 2015 will be enough. 

I've always thought that for many similar but unique [object wise] animation sequences in one scene, generating 30+ animation renders that MAX has been terrible at allowing simple management of it. It always comes down to remembering whats supposed to be in each scene. 

I dont know if this is supposed to be handled by scene states [this is for lightweight scene compositing i think], or layers management which at over 40 becomes hard to manage when many scenes have common objects in them. I have yet to find a good solution to this problem.

Cheers, Steve

[paulneale]

Custom Max Script tool?

[donied]

We do alot of large civil jobs and I find that xrefs work quite well. split different parts of the project into different max files. You can then turn the xrefs on and off per scene. It works well for us but it might not work well for everybody. I suppose I'm used to xrefs coming from a CAD background

[miketruly]

I would give Render Pass Manager a look.

It might have the same limitations for you as State Sets but RPM has been around much longer than State Sets and I find it indispensable for my work.  I setup multiple passes in RPM with unique vis sets and property sets and with one click have all the items ready to render.  The Before/After scripts allow lots of flexibility in areas such as linking/unlinking objects. 

With this method, you can animate seperate objects such as DummyA and DummyB and then when the passA is selected, the GateValve is linked to DummyA and shows that animation.  When passB is selected, the GateValve is linked to DummyB and shows that animation.

Currently, I would not give up my RPM for State Sets given what I've heard about it's issues.  Maybe at a later date but RPM is outstanding and so is the support.

(Note:  the RPM interface is a bit daunting at first glance... because it's so very capable there are lots of settings/buttons/etc., but worth the effort).

Hope this helps!

[Anonymous]

Hi, thanks for all the help, I have attached a screenshot that shows the layers that get built up and the state sets that show the sequence parts and the timing for each section [spot the camera hide issue!]. 

My workflow is to look at the 2D storyboards and work out the main shots i need, although there are always extra shots needed to be inserted. 

So my project becomes centered around my shot sequence in state sets, and all the parts for each sequence should be there when i activate a state set. But this has never happened. I can only assume its due to bugs, as i never get all the objects i should have when i activate a layer. I have to always "unhide all" before things show up, and then remember which objects to hide again. New objects get added at each state, but i wish that they were hidden on all the other states by default maybe. 

Layers dont help either as they force each object onto only one layer, so after a while it becomes a memory exercise on which objects on which layers need to be turned on or off for each state set that does not work anyway. So im wasting a massive amount of time now, having setup the project this way, im locked into it. Its also going to give me issues when im asked to modify things in 3 months, i will have to remember which goes where. 

Im going to drop most of this for the next project, and just animate what i need into and out of shot from a "non rendering storage area [off camera]" and use state sets to control the timeline and render settings. 

RPM looks like it might help, but i dont know about being able to justify getting it. 

I still think that MAX has a feature hole on this kind of thing. Either that or I need to wait untill MAX 2015 might have state sets that actually are fit for purpose [assuming that there working, im not sure i want to waste my time finding out], or the new layered layer system, that looks like it might be as complex as the state sets with sub sets to use. 

I cant understand why there are no good MAX tools for more technical animation sequence management that bases a projects setup on animation sequences. Allowing me to simply setup a list of animation sequences that will track objects and animations without restricting everything to individual layers. 

I've built games and done most everyting in MAX at some point, but for technical animations its really missing a lot of scene management features.

I've used MAX since version 3.5 and always thought that for large projects it was built more for one off sequences that can be done from scratch with a scene per file and libraries behind it, or for games that ultimately get finalised in a game engine anyway.

For the lone artist that wants to keep things to one main file, and do a lot of complex sequences in turn its always been a memory game. 

I think im going to have to muddle thru this project, test the next version of MAX to see if it does what i want, if not, I will go back to basics and animate things into shot when I want them then back out again. I sometimes wonder what the USE CASES are in the dev team. 

Has anyone ever found a good resource for project setup ideas and methods and discussion or scene management at this level?

I've been trying to find one so i can learn new tricks but no luck yet. I'm not sure if it starts to get into the trade secrets level of doing things, but for non studio types its hard to get this kind of detailed information.  

I've been very pleased by Autodesks attitude to new ideas across the products as I've also been video conferencing to the team on Inventor Publisher as i have come up with a new way to use it to do interactive training thats not been done before. Its good to see feedback being taken on board by all. 

Cheers, Steve

[miketruly]

Steve,

I definitely agree there could be some improvements in this area as I do similar work (you're work looks great BTW).

I use RPM for this task and it works great.  When you create a vis set and assign it to a pass and select that pass (and then the vis set is activated), all vis set objects, cameras, lights, etc. are made visible.  There are no bugs in this area as the plugin is very mature.  It works.  BTW, there are many override options to the vis sets so you can choose to include or not include cameras, lights, helpers.  Or temporarily disable the vis set actions, etc.

Then there's object properties per pass.  When you select passA... light1 has a color of yellow.  When you select passB... light1 has a color of purple.  Whatever object properties you choose to adjust for each pass.

Then there's materials per pass.  On passA object1 has materialA assigned to it.  On passB object1 has materialB assigned to it.

Then there's the ease of net-rendering using this tool.  The submissions to BB or Deadline are great.

Then there's the Before/After scripts per pass (which I use for re-linking hierarchies per pass).

Then there's effects/atmos per pass.

Hands down, best plugin for MAX I ever bought and I use it on every project.  So many options... I only know how to use about 1/2 the features.

(I would like to see Animation Sets added to the capabilites.  So for example, now if you have animation keys on objectA and you would like to create a 2nd animation for objectA... you either have to remove the 1st animation or do the 2nd animation at a later point in time or have separate MAX files... all of which are a huge hassle.  If I do the 1st animation on DummyA and the 2nd animation on DummyB and then re-link using the Before/After scripting methods in RPM, it works.  But ideally what I want is 'Animation Sets' where objectA is assigned animA (keyframes) when passA is selected and then is assigned animB (keyframes) when passB is selected and I could avoid the scripted re-linking part).

I've attached an image showing the settings for a single tab in the RPM user interface (the Common tab).  Also the Vis Sets Manager UI is shown which I rarely use as I can do all things via a right-click menu.

Good luck!

[VishnuR]

Hello,

Some enhancements of State Sets stability and performance have been included in

3ds Max 2015, so good news there.  Be sure to get SP1.

http://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/downloads/caas/downloads/content/autodesk-3ds-max-2015...

Check the Readme for State Set fixes.

http://download.autodesk.com/us/support/files/3dsmax_2015_service_pack_1/3dsMax2015_SP1_Readme.htm

You may want to try the trial of 3dsMax 2015 to see if

its more stable for you with State Sets.

The trial is fully functional for 30 days.

For your other recommendations on State Sets , Animation

Sequences, RPM, improvements  To 3ds Max

Its best to send this type of info to links below as it

goes to our product development team.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=1109794

http://3dsmaxfeedback.autodesk.com/forums/80695-general-feature-requests

Best Regards

VR